Road to Microsoft Software Engineering

Hyunrae initially hated CS and majored in economics. But his dedication towards pursuing a “million dollar idea”  changes everything. In this episode, we talk about Hyunrae's coding journey, his first coding project, and how to get a software engineering internship at Microsoft. 

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are solely my guest's and my own. They do not express the views or opinions of our employers.

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Transcript

00:00.71
sharonpak5
Hi guys welcome to another episode of tech exploited today I have my friend chira um, who is a software engineer for Microsoft and so thanks for coming on the show today. Yeah I am so excited to do this interview with you.

00:17.17
Hyunrae
Ah, of course, what's up everyone? um I'm so honored that you asked me to be here and I'm just yeah I'm glad I Really like what you're doing and I wish there was a podcast like this when I was a college student. So yeah I didn't yeah.

00:30.73
sharonpak5
Um, all honored. Okay, and so I honestly don't really know what you do at Microsoft and so I was wondering if you could share with us what you do talk a little about what or your role and just give us a background. Yeah.

00:37.51
Hyunrae
Wow.

00:47.34
Hyunrae
Yeah, sure. Um, so um, from a broad view I work on windows and then I guess more specifically I think probably a lot of your listeners probably know what windows updates are as long as they use a windows Pc um.

00:59.31
sharonpak5
Um, yeah, ah.

01:02.41
Hyunrae
So Yeah I work on those I know most people don't like those my my parents don't like those but but they're filled with a lot of important security updates and also performance updates and I help kind of um, take those to all the different versions of windows and then test them and make sure that everything that we send out. Is okay that they don't cause any issues and yeah, so that's kind of a.

01:26.97
sharonpak5
So your the reason why we have windows updates because I'm working on a windows computer right now like I have a windows computer for my personal and I also have one for my work and so um, you're the one who like pushes out all the random updates as easily what you're saying right now.

01:37.36
Hyunrae
Um.

01:43.34
Hyunrae
Okay, okay I am not the reason you have them I help if if anything actually I'm on your side if anything I help them make it as painless as possible. Um, but you should blame. We have a lot of so we work with a lot of um.

01:44.40
sharonpak5
Okay, okay.

02:01.10
Hyunrae
But you call white hat hackers that help find security vulnerabilities and issues with windows and they'll submit reports for reports to Microsoft and we pay them in return and then we look at those reports and then fix those ah in the next updates. Yeah.

02:04.57
sharonpak5
Okay.

02:14.31
sharonpak5
Wait What is a white hat hacker.

02:19.56
Hyunrae
Yeah, so generally when you use a term Hacker ums Generally it's not a great connotation because um, they're hacking into something right? but um, white hackers are good hackers because they actually strengthen systems and strengthen security by submitting reports to us.

02:23.98
sharonpak5
Um, yeah, yeah, what.

02:38.56
Hyunrae
Privately so they won't They won't upload it anywhere for any bad users but they'll give it to us directly so that we could fix it and then tell everyone hey we fix this issue that you did not know you had but um, yeah.

02:51.22
sharonpak5
Ah, have you ever heard of death con.

02:55.12
Hyunrae
Yeah, yeah, yeah of course of course a lot of people from my team actually go. Yeah, yeah, so a lot of ah oh sorry to cut you off a lot a lot of the people that we work with actually they sometimes after we fix the security vulnerability. They'll actually go.

02:58.46
sharonpak5
Oh really? Okay, and yeah, so go no go go go.

03:11.91
sharonpak5
Yeah, oh no way that's so cool. Okay, and so do you want to explain a little bit more of like what Defcon is.

03:14.66
Hyunrae
Do a talk on what they found? Yeah yeah, so defcon. Oh I mean personally I haven't ever been So I can't really go too much into detail. But.

03:25.61
sharonpak5
Okay, and.

03:29.60
Hyunrae
From what I hear it. It is a security related security focused conference. Ah, that's yearly and developers will fly all around the world to go attend this thing and it's usually a lot of talks from industry experts. And apparently it's a lot of fun. Apparently they do a lot of parties at night too. So. Um, yeah, yeah.

03:50.33
sharonpak5
Ah, okay, okay, so the only reason why I ask is because my ah old manager at my last job used to go to defcon every single year and so ah, he told us that at these conferences. Basically he would meet all these people who would hack. Like hack all these websites and then they would get paid to ah hack all these different websites and then give over all that information to them and I was like oh is that kind of like what a white hat hacker is they're just basically random people that like hack Microsoft and they're like okay like.

04:10.90
Hyunrae
Um, listen.

04:15.85
Hyunrae
Um.

04:27.80
sharonpak5
I Found all these vulnerabilities and so if I give this information to you. You have to pay me money. Okay.

04:31.25
Hyunrae
Exactly exactly? Um, so most companies actually have this like Paypal um has like a pretty notable one. Oh even like I don't probably some of the viewers know what legal legends is even the company behind that riot has a bug bounty program.

04:44.16
sharonpak5
Um, really, ah.

04:47.40
Hyunrae
Um, it's called a bug bounty program. Yeah, so for each bug you find you get paid out and then there are kind of levels of security bugs. So like the more severe it is the more money you get actually and so ah, who biggest payout.

04:57.20
sharonpak5
Interesting How what's like the biggest payout you've heard for like a single bug all really for a single bug.

05:06.67
Hyunrae
It's probably in 6 figures. Yeah, um, yeah, but I think even like some of the average ones just the average ones I think are 5 figures like ten k twenty k yeah, yeah, it is so if you're good at this. Um.

05:18.37
sharonpak5
Wow, That's so a lot of money.

05:26.00
Hyunrae
This is their your livelihood. This is a lot of people's livelihood actually um, especially there's a lot in Russia chinese China south america yeah so all over the world. Oh man I think.

05:35.63
sharonpak5
Okay, that's pretty cool. Have you ever thought about doing something like that or now.

05:43.74
Hyunrae
I think to be 1 of these people is actually really hard and um, yeah, even when I look at windows code myself. It's still hard for me to kind of um these guys are really smart. Um, yeah, especially in a field that's already pretty difficult which is operating systems. Um.

05:44.13
sharonpak5
Yeah huh.

05:55.59
sharonpak5
Okay.

06:03.10
sharonpak5
Ah.

06:03.54
Hyunrae
They are able to go beyond that and like they can formulate code from like I don't know how you know what assembly is ah it's like it's like pretty low-level machine code. Um, and.

06:10.10
sharonpak5
No. Okay.

06:17.80
Hyunrae
It doesn't look like the code that you're familiar with. It's very very basic instructions and they're able to reverse engineer that into code and like yeah so it's a very ah very I would say very specific skill that they have and.

06:24.81
sharonpak5
Ah.

06:32.10
Hyunrae
To be able to think like them is a whole different skill set. Yeah.

06:34.56
sharonpak5
Okay, gotcha. Okay, and so you since you work more on the operating side or operating system side of Microsoft what does like your day to day kind of like look like.

06:42.59
Hyunrae
Um.

06:48.92
Hyunrae
Yeah, sure. Um, so um, the day-to-day. So um, our team. Yeah, so because we work on a case by case like these are cases that we get security cases or even just.

07:01.66
sharonpak5
Um, ahead.

07:02.27
Hyunrae
Reports from our partners that say hey something about windows isn't functioning as we expect it to we receive? Yeah, we receive these reports and then we take a look and then implement some sort of fix or promise them a fix and things like that. So usually most of the time by the time I have a fix or by the time I have a case.

07:05.14
sharonpak5
Yeah.

07:21.67
Hyunrae
Usually there's already a fix in plan and so what I do is I take that and then make whatever modifications that needs to be done for a specific version of windows and then um I oftentimes actually have to generate what what you call like a private or basically like windows system files.

07:24.61
sharonpak5
Ah.

07:41.48
Hyunrae
To give to our partners for them to verify hey this looks good and then once they give me that green light I Do whatever additional testing is necessary and then um, yeah, prep that and push it for the next one's updates. Um.

07:41.69
sharonpak5
Um, ah okay.

07:56.13
sharonpak5
Okay, so it's like you guys hear about all these different vulnerabilities. You guys have and then you go and then you guys have an action plan of how to fix the vulnerability and then you're the one that's creating um all the different fixes for this new action plan that you guys got.

07:58.64
Hyunrae
And. Minute.

08:09.93
Hyunrae
Correct correct and then outside of like the cases that we get. We generally tend to work on any tools or whatever that could help us improve confidence in these fixes or even.

08:11.46
sharonpak5
To fix it So you guys don't have the same problems again in the future.

08:26.80
Hyunrae
Automate Some of the kind of the monoonous parts of our job. So yeah.

08:30.40
sharonpak5
Okay, and so like a lot of times when you have like operating system vulnerabilities. What does that like even mean because I know that we get emails from big corporations like Target for example or ah paypal.

08:34.33
Hyunrae
This.

08:44.65
Hyunrae
Um, no.

08:46.90
sharonpak5
They're like oh hey like your user information has been compromised. They might have access to XY and z so is it kind of the same deal for an operating system or is it different types of problems that you have with the operating system.

08:47.15
Hyunrae
I mean.

08:56.98
Hyunrae
Ah, yeah, so I would say it's It's kind of different um because it's not like we're securing some sort of we're not really securing user information per se um, like for them. They might have someone that gone to whatever their database they're using and then they got a whole bunch of passwords and things.

09:07.43
sharonpak5
Ah, her.

09:13.30
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

09:15.50
Hyunrae
Um, and for a lot of other companies. A lot of their bug. Bounties can involve some level of that like user user information being leaked but in our case, it's more I would say some of the most common vulnerabilities that we get is just it's called a denial of service meaning.

09:19.80
sharonpak5
And.

09:33.48
Hyunrae
If I ah do something on your computer then it'll crush. Um right or like if a certain type of X Yeah Yi runs it'll crush even without like the level of security privilege it has and so yeah, there's a lot of these different various like.

09:38.31
sharonpak5
Ah.

09:47.16
sharonpak5
Ah.

09:52.10
Hyunrae
So windows code is in C and C is prone to a lot of issues if you don't write it in a way that counts for everything So whether there's like these things called inage or overflows. There's race conditions. There's so many different things and also um.

09:52.43
sharonpak5
Okay.

09:59.60
sharonpak5
Ha.

10:11.30
Hyunrae
So Kind of get more specific about what my team does is we are in charge of the kernel. Um, and the kernel for those for whatever listeners have taken operating system. They know it's like it's like um, it's 1 of the first programs that ever runs on your computer when you turn it On. It's the thing that manages almost everything whether it's your power whether it's a processes. Um, and so when the kernel gets Compromised. That's really dangerous because the user itself of the computer should never have access to kernel privileges but there are holes in code where.

10:44.10
sharonpak5
Ha.

10:49.82
Hyunrae
You can do something that only the kernel should be able to do whether it's read certain types of memory modify certain types of memory and um, that's really bad and especially when you I would say for the average user. That's not that scary but for like when we talk about corporations especially because um.

11:02.97
sharonpak5
M.

11:07.42
Hyunrae
So our team used to be under azure because our focus was to secure azure vms Azure windows vms. Um, exactly so a lot of enterprises use windows virtual machines via azure and so it's really important to secure those because.

11:13.50
sharonpak5
So virtual machines right? vms are virtual machines. Yeah.

11:27.11
Hyunrae
Talking about even like a downtime of like what like 5 minutes could cost um but like a lot of money for companies. So um, yeah, there's really various. There's a lot of different security vulnerabilities. Um, but yeah.

11:30.17
sharonpak5
A lot of money. Yeah yeah.

11:38.80
sharonpak5
Okay, interesting and so that just means that they don't have access right when you have a virtual machine. It's like they're running off of a machine that's not presently like at their company like for example, you could be having a machine in Ohio they have all your servers on and then you can't access any of that information for 5 minutes

11:49.33
Hyunrae
Now.

11:58.21
sharonpak5
And that 5 minutes cost a company a ton of money right? Basically what you're saying yep.

12:00.78
Hyunrae
Yeah, yeah for a lot of ah lot of companies to they host their websites. So like let's say like take Amazon for example, obviously they use Aws but let's say their website goes down that's terrible for them. Um, yeah, so.

12:08.39
sharonpak5
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay gotcha and so what are some of the things that you learned from school that you now.

12:16.51
Hyunrae
Yeah.

12:22.41
Hyunrae
That.

12:25.90
sharonpak5
Like use every day at Microsoft would you say that you use like 10 percent of what you learned in school like 50% of what you used and learned in school like what does that look like ah okay.

12:35.44
Hyunrae
Ah, that's a good question. Ah I would say this is not what I thought I would do at least my job in operating systems or whatever is very different from what I had in mind. So.

12:45.64
sharonpak5
Um, really yeah, ah.

12:53.12
Hyunrae
I Never really even like took a lot of like system system programming classes. Um, and so I would say probably huh probably like ten percent I did take like ah I did take a system that during intro class. Um, so I can't deny but.

12:56.53
sharonpak5
Okay.

13:09.25
sharonpak5
Ah.

13:12.20
Hyunrae
I Can't deny it like same that helped prep me to some sort to some extent but I would say at least for me, it's a lot of the problem solving just general problem solving that I learned in college plus like the soft skills that help the most. Yeah.

13:14.50
sharonpak5
And.

13:24.83
sharonpak5
Okay, ah, okay so what would you say was like the most and like if you're to go back into college now knowing what you know now like what would you have done in college like differently.

13:29.83
Hyunrae
Are.

13:35.71
Hyunrae
Oh and knowing that I'll have the same job that I do now like and at the same I see.

13:40.54
sharonpak5
Or just like knowing industry in general right? Um, so now working in industry like what would you have done differently would you have still set yourself up to go to Microsoft and work in this role or would you have like done something slightly different to work in a slightly different industry or.

13:56.61
Hyunrae
Um, yeah, ah, good question when I think back how would I have done it differently. So I think ah foremost.

14:09.18
Hyunrae
Just to preface I would still go to Microsoft I think it was a great first shop out of college I'm very thankful to them for taking a chance with me and um yeah I can't say I only have good things to say about my experience at Microsoft. Um.

14:11.80
sharonpak5
Um, okay, um.

14:21.54
sharonpak5
Yeah.

14:26.31
Hyunrae
If I had to go back I think number one I would have started earlier or like I think by the end of my freshman year I knew I wanted to do computer science at that point. Um.

14:37.50
sharonpak5
And.

14:40.29
Hyunrae
But it wasn't only until about junior year that I started looking for internships or started think outside of cs classes because to be honest I think cs classes I mean for sure 100% important but um I think.

14:48.39
sharonpak5
Earth.

14:59.51
Hyunrae
In terms of your life after college a lot of it has to do with what you do outside of the classroom. Um, so that is why I actually mentioned or like at the start of this podcast. It would have been nice to have a podcast like this because I really don't think I learned what I needed to do until it was kind of late for me.

15:02.75
sharonpak5
Her.

15:18.86
Hyunrae
Um, yeah, so yeah, primarily yeah, get it. Yeah inter earlier have my resume done or like even knew what my resumeation I looked like earlier. Um, yeah I think it's um.

15:19.62
sharonpak5
Um, okay, so so you would have like intern earlier.

15:33.11
sharonpak5
Ah.

15:37.20
Hyunrae
It's advantageous for you to have an idea of the industry as early as possible. Yeah.

15:40.67
sharonpak5
Okay, and so you're saying earlier that you didn't even think that you'd end up where you are now right back then you thought that you're going to end up somewhere completely different. So could you go into that a little bit more and explain what you meant by that.

15:46.48
Hyunrae
Then.

15:55.45
Hyunrae
Oh like in terms of when I said I wasn't sure I was gonna do Cs Yeah so um, yeah, and my parents still make fun of me for this but like the day they dropped me off at college I like turned to them I was a mon die I'm so sorry but I'm not going to do stem.

15:56.69
sharonpak5
Yeah.

16:12.19
Hyunrae
Like you have to know this about me I'm not but I don't like my I don't science I don't like engineering I'm sorry and they're like ah ha Ha We never cared like Ha ha by and so um, oh yeah, yeah.

16:17.31
sharonpak5
Huh.

16:22.67
sharonpak5
Go back wait. So yeah, they said we never cared. That's pretty big for Asian parents especially Korean parents right.

16:30.95
Hyunrae
So my parents luckily they're very supportive of whatever I do but I like self-imposed that I thought they wanted me to do like like stve of some sort. Um, but they're like no yeah yeah of course like engineers don't even make that much money and this is them not really knowing computer science really.

16:39.85
sharonpak5
Okay.

16:50.21
Hyunrae
At all either. So they're like oh engineer doesn't even make that good money you you should just become like business or whatever like and and so that was a plan. Yeah exactly So I went to college thinking that I was going to do economics. Um, yeah.

16:53.99
sharonpak5
Ok, just become a lawyer instead yesterday like yeah.

17:05.43
sharonpak5
Oh really I didn't know this. Okay.

17:09.62
Hyunrae
Yeah, yeah, so oh do do I give off kind of consulting economics fives. Ah, ah.

17:14.32
sharonpak5
No, ah.

17:20.90
sharonpak5
I Feel like you're too nice to be a consultant like I feel like you get like roasted in that industry. You know what? I mean because you're just like too nice if they say something to you be like? ah.

17:29.60
Hyunrae
Yeah, ah now I've get roasted. Um.

17:36.62
sharonpak5
But no, it's just like because you're like really nice right? And like you're like a yes man you like saying yes to everyone and everything So I feel like we're consulting is kind of more of a cutthrow industry and so I feel like you wouldn't like it if people are being like mean to you and people aren't being nice to you because you're like at I don't know what to do you know.

17:43.65
Hyunrae
Um, ah.

17:55.97
Hyunrae
Ah, yeah though I mean in hindsight yeah I'm so I'm I'm pretty happy where I'm at um I Ah but yeah I That's what I went in as um and so yeah, yeah I was in the arts and sciences.

18:03.57
sharonpak5
Um, ok, you wouldn't ask economics. Ok ok for how long. Ok.

18:12.82
Hyunrae
Um, and so for 1 year and then I switched out the end of my freshman year? Yeah, um, yeah, so um I gave computer science a trying in high school and I thought I didn't like it. Um I thought I wasn't.

18:19.86
sharonpak5
Okay, why the change.

18:28.55
sharonpak5
Ah, ah.

18:31.72
Hyunrae
Naturally gifted towards it and so I think and this is kind of like a point that I did want to highlight I think a lot of people that try computer sense for the first time believe in this like notion that people are either built or not built for career science. But i. Personally don't subscribe to the idea at least from my personal experience and so yeah, so because it was only like the third time I tried it that I really liked it and all of a sudden it clicked for me but a lot of people believe that it will never click for them.

18:53.90
sharonpak5
Um, ah okay, why.

19:07.70
sharonpak5
Huh I'm in that boat I've tried brainwashing myself so many times to like computer science I can't even tell you like so I I also learned computer science for the first time in high school where we had this little robot named carol.

19:09.76
Hyunrae
Um, the.

19:21.37
Hyunrae
Um, oh no.

19:23.55
sharonpak5
And it would like go through a maze have you heard of it before? Oh okay, so this this little like robot that you'd like program to grow through mazes is kind of like stupid right? So like it can't turn right? You can only turn left 3 times and like I was just horrible at programming this robot I'd always be like the last one.

19:30.35
Hyunrae
Are the.

19:41.35
sharonpak5
And my class to like finish the maze puzzle thing right? I just felt stupid so this is like a whole semester's worth of classes unlike programming sucks and then in college I try it again. I took a CS fifty I don't know if you've heard of it. Yeah, it's like a.

19:46.15
Hyunrae
Um, yeah, and.

19:56.60
Hyunrae
Oh I think I have just yeah yeah, yeah, ah ah, ah.

19:59.22
sharonpak5
Free like Harvard Stanford 1 of those things ah like class that teaches you like the basics of cs and I didn't finish it because I'm like I also suck at this and it's taking me way longer than it says like it's supposed to take you type a deal and then I work under're my boss because he's like a huge deaf con guy I tried again right and on ah till I learn.

20:17.33
Hyunrae
Um, ah ah yeah.

20:18.99
sharonpak5
Python and tried to do like machine learning type of Dion I also hated I'm like cs is not for me so I'm like curious about how you ended up saying like oh this clicked for me after a while and like you just need to keep trying.

20:31.41
Hyunrae
Yeah, um, yeah, so oh should I Well actually let me quickly touch on why I chose to try it again in college and then I will kind of touch on. Yeah, ah why I don't subscribe to that that idea. Um.

20:38.77
sharonpak5
Okay.

20:44.14
sharonpak5
Okay.

20:47.65
Hyunrae
First I did end up taking computer science in my first semester but that was only because I was already at 18 credits. Um, which um, the recommended was 15 by it was taking 18 credits but a lot of them were intro classes. So even at 18 I was like I was pretty like I had so much time on my hand because.

20:51.71
sharonpak5
Um.

21:07.81
Hyunrae
Um, a lot of these intro classes didn't really give out a lot of homework. They weren't very time consuming. So just like I was like ah maybe like let's consider the idea of graduating a little early so I I was like what what class is still open. Um, and then that extra class is intro to see us. Um, they just.

21:18.74
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

21:23.50
sharonpak5
Okay.

21:27.27
Hyunrae
They had a ton of these lefts I was like ah I've taken cs before let's just get to easy 3 credits. Um, and so that's why I sign up for it. Um, and then oh ah hold.

21:36.34
sharonpak5
Um, okay, that's like true Asian overretrieving mentality right? there.

21:46.42
Hyunrae
Yeah, the school I went to is I went to Washington University Of St Louis it's not a cheap school. It's an expensive school and um, like my dad and I agreed that we would go hals on tuition and so for me at that time I was so like fixated on on the idea of graduating early. Um.

21:53.29
sharonpak5
Ah, ah.

22:05.80
sharonpak5
Ah, save money.

22:06.23
Hyunrae
Yeah to save a little bit of money. Um, but um, but anyways, um, yeah so I I ended up trying it and then it went it went. Okay, there are times where I stuck but overall it went okay and then. Someone at the end of my first semester was like hey I think you're pretty good at this. You should just try taking cs 2 and then and then I take cs two and that's where I kind of first found like a glimpse of like oh maybe I can do this? Um and so that's kind of all that happened like.

22:25.83
sharonpak5
Ha.

22:36.12
sharonpak5
Ha.

22:41.34
Hyunrae
How it happened I think I'm very thankful that I took that Cs class my first semester otherwise I don't I Really don't know if I would have done it. Um, yeah, so that's why I tried it again. Ah but yeah, kind of to go back to your previous question on why I believe.

22:48.62
sharonpak5
While okay.

23:00.48
Hyunrae
Um, from my personal experience. Um I think at least for myself. It just took me to be passionate about passion. Be passionate enough about something I wanted to build that forced me to that forced me to try until it clicked.

23:03.99
sharonpak5
Ah.

23:18.26
sharonpak5
Ok.

23:20.10
Hyunrae
Um, so yeah to go more in depthth about that my freshman summer no internship, no job. Nothing I went home. My prayers are like what you got planned I got nothing planned. Um, yeah, that's a terrible feeling.

23:26.63
sharonpak5
Okay.

23:33.76
sharonpak5
You know I just want to go back home like I don't want to be out here. No more just sent me home but emotional damage.

23:39.55
Hyunrae
Is like and you go home and no one wants you and yeah, it's terrible feeling. Ah terrible. Um, ah, but but um, so so like determined to do something about myself. Like summer I like just like just sat and thought and I like dude I think I got a million dollar app idea. Um, and I know a lot of people have these I had I had my moments. Um so I had a million dollar app idea and i.

24:04.15
sharonpak5
Huh. Okay.

24:13.20
sharonpak5
Ah.

24:15.50
Hyunrae
It was an ios app that I wanted to build um but this is me coming out with only two cs classes not knowing any Ios development never having really built anything of my own but I was so convinced about this idea that I bought a mac mini ah because you need a mac to develop ios.

24:17.90
sharonpak5
Ok, ah.

24:24.97
sharonpak5
Okay.

24:32.89
sharonpak5
Ah, yeah, you do ah.

24:34.64
Hyunrae
Yeah, and I bought a mac mini off Craigslist hooked it up to my monitor and I tried to build this thing. Um, and that's basically I didn't love the process I promise I didn't love the process but I was so convinced about this idea that I like.

24:52.86
sharonpak5
Ah.

24:53.90
Hyunrae
Forced to myself. Oh my hundred if you can manage to do this. You could be a millionaire and so but I did I was so money focused back then I was ah ah.

24:59.18
sharonpak5
You're so money- focused.

25:04.30
sharonpak5
I Need to take extra units so I could graduate earlier and I don't have to pay extra tuition money.

25:09.54
Hyunrae
Ah, exactly say if this app succeeds I could quit school I don't have to pay any more tuition. Um, as ah yeah I Ah yeah, um.

25:22.67
sharonpak5
Ah, okay.

25:27.50
Hyunrae
Thank god for changing me a little bit but um, yeah I was so convinced about the product that I committed very hard to this process and I think a part of it also has to do with being able to show my parents like I was capable. This is so like I know it's Asia but like obviously like it doesn't feel great to go home with nothing planned for the summer so I was like I'm gonna show them um and then yeah.

25:54.74
sharonpak5
But they're the ones who are like we don't care. You're like I'm a show you anyway.

26:00.21
Hyunrae
Yeah, yeah, you know that's what's funny about my parents I don't think they care. But then I don't know how they did it but they planned it in me for me like myself to care. Um, and so yeah, so that summer I spent like.

26:06.85
sharonpak5
Okay.

26:14.45
Hyunrae
Ah I I it was almost a full-time job I would say um I probably spent upwards of like 300 hours just trying to build this thing. Um, yeah, and maybe two hundred and fifty hours was just me Google searching or watching Youtube videos and then.

26:24.80
sharonpak5
That's crazy. Okay, okay.

26:32.66
Hyunrae
I didn't realize what that did for me in the long run until I went back my sophomore freshman year when all of a sudden I like noticed oh I no longer like needed to go to Ta's or I no longer needed to like get help from friends because at that point I knew how to like search for answers myself.

26:38.84
sharonpak5
Um.

26:52.15
sharonpak5
Um, ah okay, wait. So ah, sorry you can finish your start but like I'm curious like so did you make your million dollar app

26:52.16
Hyunrae
Um, yeah, and that that oh no, of course not.

27:06.93
Hyunrae
Ah, of course not I was like maybe 60% done by the end of summer. Um, yeah, um, yeah, it was even successful and so I almost considered it a failure as I went back? um to college. Ah.

27:11.57
sharonpak5
Okay.

27:20.25
sharonpak5
Okay, okay.

27:24.98
Hyunrae
But in in hindsight I think that was one of the most influential summers I could have had. Um, yeah yeah, yeah.

27:29.00
sharonpak5
Wow ok, what was the idea that you had in your million dollar app idea you have to share it with us because this app changed your life and the whole trajectory of your career and ironically you are now working for Microsoft when you're trying to develop an ios up.

27:43.31
Hyunrae
Ah.

27:48.86
Hyunrae
Um.

27:52.32
sharonpak5
Writing systems for Microsoft and not Iowa. Ah.

27:56.35
Hyunrae
Yeah, first I okay guy. So for everyone listening they need to know that at that time it was a great idea. But now it might sound stupid. Um, this is twenty seventeen summer so yeah everyone

28:04.71
sharonpak5
Okay, this was back how many years ago like what like seven years ago

28:13.83
Hyunrae
Transport yourself back then you have like okay let me just let me just say the idea was a calendar app. Okay, okay, stay with me though stay with me. It was a calendar app where users can import their Google calendar or their Apple calendar and then.

28:21.89
sharonpak5
Okay, okay.

28:33.81
Hyunrae
Um, basically you can add people on the app like friends family and then whenever you needed to find it a time or event for something I know this sounds super familiar. But you could easily find a time because this app knows what everyone's schedule is um yeah so.

28:48.87
sharonpak5
Okay.

28:53.11
Hyunrae
In college we face this issue a lot. We're trying to find a time for a dinner or like a group is trying to find time to work on a project and everyone has different schedules at the time there was this website I don't know if you're familiar with but it was like just you all you would open and you would like Mark the times that you're available and then that website would.

28:57.34
sharonpak5
Yeah.

29:07.20
sharonpak5
I Never use that.

29:10.86
Hyunrae
Yeah, there was a website that but for me I was like let's take that and then let's make it into app so that people don't have to always like Mark their availability instead the Apple just find a time. Um, and then you know what I called that app actually back then teams.

29:17.13
sharonpak5
Yeah, yeah.

29:23.28
sharonpak5
What no way? No way.

29:29.26
Hyunrae
I called it I could literally ah I could literally pull up my github from 26 2017 and it' say teams as a app name exactly this was not what teams.

29:39.70
sharonpak5
Um, ah Shara you messed up. Ah.

29:46.59
sharonpak5
Yeah, yeah.

29:46.93
Hyunrae
That's literally what teams does on top of everything else. It does it helps you find time? Yeah, ah I don't I got yeah.

29:56.24
sharonpak5
Um, you have literally been a millionaire.

30:00.72
sharonpak5
You know how much do you know? how much teams is probably worth now probably like billions of dollars not even millions like billions of dollars you could have been a billionaire bro a big be you get a bit a big b with the Billy like.

30:08.95
Hyunrae
Ah, may ah that if I was if I was yeah if I was a little smarter back then who knows um.

30:16.23
sharonpak5
Wait so why don't you finish it. You say you're 60% dying you just abandoned afterwards you're like peace I won't do this no more or what.

30:24.90
Hyunrae
Kind of like ah like I hate like do once you look at something once you work on really any project for a certain amount like ah hundreds of hours you start hating it. You start like despising you start like.

30:30.78
sharonpak5
Here.

30:39.22
Hyunrae
Every time you look at it like oh my gosh This idea was like the stupidest idea ever like it happens with almost every personal project that I get passionate about? yeah so yeah I.

30:46.79
sharonpak5
For sure. Yeah, yeah, well so I think I've heard like ah you know how you see these people these really cool jobs right? where you're like oh I would love to do that as a living and so then um, you know how I travel a lot right.

30:55.62
Hyunrae
Oh.

31:00.56
sharonpak5
And so I meet all these people are really cool jobs like oh they're like a professional mountain man and all he does is like go to all these crazy different mountains all over the world and like leave people through mountains like that's a cool job or like people they own their own like dive boat and so they just take people out to all these beautiful dive spots all over Indonesia right? they take people like diving and I'm like oh wow like yeah, but.

31:06.13
Hyunrae
A.

31:20.46
sharonpak5
Ah, coolest like dream job right? and they're like no I actually like it's just a job like even things that you love eventually becomes a job and I think that was like super like enlightening to me I'm like oh shoot you're right? You know like you're not always going to love everything that you.

31:23.37
Hyunrae
Um, ah.

31:27.96
Hyunrae
Um, yeah now.

31:36.90
sharonpak5
Once did even though it was a passion at 1 point and might still be a passion like every single day you have to still put in the work right.

31:40.91
Hyunrae
Um, yeah, yeah, exactly um for sure and kind of on a slightly different note like even like when I listen to podcasts of like creators or artists like a lot of times even like some.

31:47.94
sharonpak5
And.

31:56.55
Hyunrae
My friends that make music they always end up hating whatever they make like after a sermon ours they're like dude this is so garbage and they play for me I'm like dude this is so good like ah half It's all the time. Um.

31:58.58
sharonpak5
Ah, yup.

32:08.67
sharonpak5
Ah, yeah, why didn't that is I don't know.

32:14.45
Hyunrae
Just I think your brain starts to think like there's nothing magical about this. There's nothing once you like get into nitty gritty of everything you just start I Think once you reach a certain level of proficiency I'm not talking about myself for this app but like for especially musicians. Um.

32:21.34
sharonpak5
And.

32:28.44
sharonpak5
Yeah, yeah.

32:32.50
Hyunrae
Probably there's probably like a endless amount of like things that they could always see themselves improving on um that probably annoys them by I Want to know I don't make music. So oh actually yes yes with.

32:35.92
sharonpak5
Yeah.

32:41.83
sharonpak5
Okay, but you like edit videos every single week and stuff like that right.

32:49.84
Hyunrae
With the bigger your projects. Oh my gosh by the end of it I get so much like I get so I get like a lot of nerves about like just like saying I'm done because the more you work on it Honestly, the the more you're just like oh like this is not what I wanted it to be um.

32:49.91
sharonpak5
Ah.

33:04.88
sharonpak5
Okay, okay, okay, do you feel like because now like you literally had teams at your fingertips and you gave it up. Yeah, you could have been literally a billionaire.

33:08.18
Hyunrae
But that's why you have to see through things like no matter what? yeah.

33:21.41
Hyunrae
Not ah.

33:22.40
sharonpak5
And you gave it up. You gave it up and so because you saw that right you put in the work and now you saw your million billion dollar idea actually come to fruition years later. Um.

33:35.96
Hyunrae
Um.

33:36.15
sharonpak5
And you know what that takes now. Do you think that that kind of instilled some grit so that now you're able to actually see your projects to completion or are you still like whatever.

33:45.96
Hyunrae
Yeah I mean honestly with teams I think now at this point I know how much further I was and I thought I was probably back then and so um, yeah I don't It's not something I'm my ah like it's not something I think bad like it doesn't keep me up at night because.

33:52.80
sharonpak5
Ha.

34:00.48
sharonpak5
Like yeah.

34:03.66
Hyunrae
Ah, ah, it doesn't keep me up at night because now I know how much work it it takes and then it's not like I would say development creating a product is only like not even maybe half the story Microsoft is able to do it teams because they're Microsoft they're able to. Ah.

34:08.37
sharonpak5
And.

34:22.16
Hyunrae
Packages product with all their other products and um, yeah, so I don't but I will say throughout from that moment and then throughout my college experience. There were a lot of ideas that I had for projects personal projects and um.

34:22.84
sharonpak5
I have.

34:40.80
Hyunrae
Yeah, a lot of them I didn't see through a lot of times like I said I fall out of love for that project and then it just fades face to nothing and so yeah I guess I would say today I am working on another personal project and this one E I I.

34:42.94
sharonpak5
Um.

34:47.64
sharonpak5
I.

34:58.10
Hyunrae
I honestly lost a lot of love for it. Um, but I think I'm just telling myself hey for the first time in your life just see through it just like get to a point where you could confidently say oh I have done like I have done ah a good job I have finished this and regardless of the outcome I could kind of.

35:00.58
sharonpak5
Um.

35:15.40
sharonpak5
Ah.

35:18.20
Hyunrae
Move on ah without wondering what could have been. Um, so yeah, that's impact it had.

35:21.24
sharonpak5
Okay gotcha and so for you right now like outside of your personal project with your job. So do you feel like you like fell in love with computer science over time because obviously at first you went to college you like I'm not going to go into stuff mom and dad.

35:40.25
Hyunrae
Yeah, um.

35:40.43
sharonpak5
Ends up becoming a software developer for Microsoft so you kind of failed there. Um, yeah, so like what does that look like for you now? yeah.

35:44.89
Hyunrae
Um, yeah, ah, ah oh am I currently still in love with computer science or did I oh I will say I did fall in love computer science by my sophomore year I did really like it. Um yeah I can't lie I did really like it um I will say post college. Um, it's not the same kind of love. Um, yeah I don't get I would say I don't get as excited.

36:14.94
sharonpak5
Ah.

36:20.47
Hyunrae
About new technology I don't get um that excited about just like writing code like I used to. It's more like now a necessity. It's like I have I have to do this thing? Um, but I think I still love building. Um.

36:28.35
sharonpak5
Okay, okay, ah.

36:38.66
Hyunrae
That is like the 1 thing I would say that hasn't really changed I really like yeah being able to having that skill set to having a like website idea or have an app idea I just try to build it and so yeah.

36:50.90
sharonpak5
Um, ok, and so how important do you think it is to love your job and whatever you're doing um and if you don't like if you fell out of love from initially. Right? because you were in love with computer science like your sophomore year base and now it's kind of not the same type of love for it Anymore. What keeps you going and keep doing computer science versus like pursuing something else.

37:08.20
Hyunrae
Hurt.

37:17.26
Hyunrae
Ah, ah, okay, first question do I think it's necessary to love your. Ah, that's a good question. Yeah I think with I think in college we're talking about before you get your first job I would say.

37:19.67
sharonpak5
Yeah, yeah.

37:30.60
sharonpak5
Yeah huh.

37:33.66
Hyunrae
It is kind of important to enjoy it to a certain extent because I think the thing that kind of carried me or at least made me who I am today made me the developer I am today it was a lot of self-interest in building things outside of the classroom. Um, and.

37:49.20
sharonpak5
Okay.

37:53.16
Hyunrae
I would imagine if you don't like programming already. You wouldn't take the initiative to do that, especially when it's not homework. um so yeah um I think before you get your first job is probably pretty important. But.

38:00.73
sharonpak5
Um.

38:08.94
sharonpak5
Okay.

38:11.97
Hyunrae
I would say currently like I I don't have to be completely honest and I I hope no one here known for my team hears this but I don't really love like what I do currently on a day to day. Um, but that's okay because I um.

38:34.34
Hyunrae
That's okay because I don't see my job as some like it's as Cliche as it sounds like I do see my job more as means to live a a a more fulfilling life. Ah man.

38:51.50
sharonpak5
Um.

38:51.55
Hyunrae
This this question kind of hard. Let me.

38:54.87
sharonpak5
Yeah I could kind of empathize though so I could say that I don't love the day in and day out of my job every single day I do like solving problems I think that solving problems is really interesting, especially when you see that impact that solving problems has on other people's lives. Um, but I'm not like in love with my job if.

39:01.57
Hyunrae
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah I don't.

39:12.52
sharonpak5
You know what? I mean I don't know if that's something you could also relate to.

39:18.43
Hyunrae
I would say I don't yeah I don't wake up every morning. Super excited to get to my job. Um, but I don't dislike it either I don't like it's not something. Ah I don't have any active like negative thoughts about it from a day-to-day basis I Love the people that I work with um.

39:21.61
sharonpak5
Sure.

39:34.28
sharonpak5
Sure.

39:37.26
Hyunrae
I Do see the impact in what I do and um I see growth. There's a lot of areas especially in this field operating systems where I can. There's like an infinite amount of knowledge that I can have in this thing and so yeah I'm not complacent I know there's.

39:47.28
sharonpak5
Um.

39:52.38
sharonpak5
Um.

39:56.78
Hyunrae
So much so many areas for me to grow and so yeah I mean honestly I can't really hope for more than this. So yeah.

39:59.29
sharonpak5
Ah.

40:04.20
sharonpak5
Okay, okay, and so you're kind of at a place where you're comfortable. It sounds like with Microsoft right? Um, you're not like super ecstatic about the work. But you're not necessarily upset about the work. You're just like comfortable. Um, and so.

40:09.70
Hyunrae
Yeah, yeah, so.

40:21.84
sharonpak5
When you're in college though. Um you like fell in love with computer science. Accidentally it sounds like.

40:28.92
Hyunrae
It was it was it. It was mostly by accident. Um, yeah I didn't see it coming my parents might have seen it coming but at least not myself. So yeah.

40:36.20
sharonpak5
Okay, and so would you say that that like switch flipping for you was building that app and then going back to school and then realizing that you're now ahead of the curve and you like that and that's why you decided to finish out your computer science major or.

40:50.49
Hyunrae
Yeah, yeah, that was a big part. Um, it was coming back and at that point I had Cs classes already lined up because I was like oh this is something I currently have plans to do and so yeah, got back and saw that that Summer helped me really.

40:55.86
sharonpak5
Are.

41:08.70
Hyunrae
Ah, it's really prep me for all the next classes I would take and then um at that point I to be like not to sound cocky but I kind of felt ahead of the game and but little did I know that the Cs like internship and job like industry was a whole different beast from.

41:10.40
sharonpak5
Yeah.

41:17.72
sharonpak5
Okay.

41:26.89
sharonpak5
Okay, okay, and so but you still got into Microsoft right out of your ah bachelor's degree when you graduated.

41:27.38
Hyunrae
Um, just classes. So yeah, um.

41:35.27
Hyunrae
And.

41:36.98
sharonpak5
And so what do you think you did in college to help get you that job right out of school.

41:43.55
Hyunrae
Yeah, yeah, great question. So um, there are a few like few significant moments. Um I would say the first one was I got back for Thanksgiving break in my sophomore year thinking oh

41:58.20
sharonpak5
Ah.

41:59.53
Hyunrae
I will start applying to some computer science jobs. Um I got back and then my parents had a family friend over whose son was a engineer at Amazon at the time and then they're like oh Henry you should talk to like this guy like this guy's the engineer amazon maybe he could give you some pointers.

42:00.29
sharonpak5
Okay.

42:09.44
sharonpak5
Okay.

42:18.42
sharonpak5
Um.

42:18.45
Hyunrae
And so I talked to him and he is like oh like like how your applications going like what applications but like like I didn't apply anywhere yet and he's like oh really by by now you should have applied to all your companies like at least the big ones and I was like no like what are you talking about right.

42:25.29
sharonpak5
Ah.

42:33.82
sharonpak5
Ah.

42:37.90
Hyunrae
This is my so this is my sophomore year like I should have known better at this point. Um, and so he's like oh man. Ah, at least you could still apply. There are companies I will still take applications. Let me see your like resume and so after ah, no luckily.

42:40.10
sharonpak5
Here.

42:50.59
sharonpak5
Ah, you're like what is that I don't have that either.

42:57.69
Hyunrae
Luckily I did have the common sense to have a resume at that point. Ah, but but boy I sent him that resume after that night and then he sent me revisions and basically the revisions were hey you need to redo this entire thing. Um, the entire thing was highlighted remove this.

42:58.78
sharonpak5
Okay.

43:14.97
sharonpak5
Okay.

43:16.81
Hyunrae
Um, and I think one that first piece of crucial permission that I got about this whole process was that your resume as a perspective software engineer should be almost entirely tech related software engineer related I had all these like.

43:34.35
sharonpak5
Ah.

43:36.30
Hyunrae
Volunteering opportunity like volunteering opportunities that I've done like like just so many random things that did not matter and so that was like a eye-opening moment for me when he told me I to redo that entire thing and and then I realized I can't even fill this resume up like not even.

43:41.53
sharonpak5
Okay.

43:53.97
Hyunrae
Like I'm not even close to filling this up. Um, and so that was a huge moment and that's when I realized man I need to take more opportunities I need like whatever like hackathons are available I need to go to those I need to like build up experience so that I could fill up this resume.

43:54.60
sharonpak5
Okay.

44:08.88
sharonpak5
Okay.

44:13.38
Hyunrae
so yeah so I actually ended up doing a hackathupon that that thanksgiving me a break. Um, right after he told me I did like an online hackathon. Um for Amazon Amazon I don't know if distill thing but Amazon would hold monthly hackathons for developing.

44:17.37
sharonpak5
Oh oh.

44:33.35
sharonpak5
Okay.

44:33.74
Hyunrae
Amazon Echo Apps Um, and so I actually ended up doing that and ah yeah, ah I Actually so command this sounds like this sounds like bragging by what I don't know. Ah.

44:43.54
sharonpak5
Did you win? yeah.

44:52.14
Hyunrae
It's it's really it's something I spent like maybe 1 or 2 days doing but I did get.

44:54.36
sharonpak5
I mean hackathons are not that long right? aren't they only like a week long at most like it's usually a couple days like yeah.

45:01.30
Hyunrae
That's true. Um, yeah, yeah, but for these online hackathons. It's like ah it's like it could be up to a month like you just have whatever like on your own time. You just build whatever you you can and then you submit it but during things give me break I Just yeah I just tried writing one.

45:12.35
sharonpak5
Okay.

45:18.71
Hyunrae
And um, yeah by god's Grace I won um and so that was a big confidence boost and that was something I could put it on my resume right? there? Um, but yeah, anyways, kind of going back to that timeline I was already late by the time.

45:19.40
sharonpak5
And you won.

45:27.87
sharonpak5
Okay.

45:36.60
Hyunrae
I was redoing my resume but I still like I was very desperate and so I emailed at the time there were a lot of companies had recruiters assigned to specific schools and colleges or regions at least and so I emailed.

45:49.62
sharonpak5
Yeah.

45:55.11
Hyunrae
Microsoft recruiter ah that was assigned to wash you and said hey I know this might be coming a little late but I'm really interested in interning at Microsoft I have attached my resume and please let me know if there's anything I could approve upon this resume set myself up for next year maybe if it's not.

45:56.95
sharonpak5
Ah.

46:14.16
Hyunrae
Open anymore and blah blah blah and I sent that email and then maybe like a month or two later like long after I lost hope I got an email back saying hey um, you're right? It's too late or it's too late for this cycle. However.

46:15.37
sharonpak5
Ah.

46:30.45
sharonpak5
Um, yeah, oh Wow. Okay.

46:33.70
Hyunrae
I will put in a referral for next year for you? Um, yeah, and so um, that summer I may rolls around I'm like I have nothing again this summer um however I did start a research position.

46:50.98
sharonpak5
Ah, okay.

46:52.72
Hyunrae
Um, a research position that paid $10 an hour. Um yeah st louis Missouri um I had a resume that I sorry I had to research it a job that paid me $10 an hour and then I made a last minute decision in may to just do that for that summer

46:56.49
sharonpak5
Alas god.

47:08.66
sharonpak5
Okay.

47:10.46
Hyunrae
For my sophomore summer because I had nothing better. It was either that or going home. Um, so exactly exactly exactly so I wasn't gonna go home barehanded so I stuck.

47:14.94
sharonpak5
And then you had that same problem again right? where you go home. Your parents are like what are you doing here.

47:23.86
sharonpak5
And okay.

47:30.24
Hyunrae
Through the St Louis Heat bike to school every day and worked 40 hours a week being paid $10 an hour building medical health apps and yeah, that ended up being crucial that ended up being another very crucial moment because I had a lot to talk about.

47:38.47
sharonpak5
Ok.

47:48.74
Hyunrae
Um, a lot to put on my resume from that summer yeah so

47:49.98
sharonpak5
Okay, you're making a lot of money but you're gaining a lot of valuable experience that you could use later for your resume right.

47:58.72
Hyunrae
Yeah I mean I better I better have been because yeah, the money was not worth ah when when when Seattle minimum wage is like fifteen bucks I'm making $10 an hour like sitting in a research lab. But.

48:13.90
sharonpak5
Okay.

48:15.78
Hyunrae
Yeah, it was a good decision in hindsight and yeah so August august wait yeah is is it? Okay, if I keep going I know this a long story. Yeah August Summer rolls around and I'm in my lab and I'm like I got an email from Microsoft saying hey you're referred.

48:22.58
sharonpak5
Yeah, keep going keep going. Go.

48:34.40
sharonpak5
A he kept his word.

48:35.63
Hyunrae
Um, to our internship program and I was like huh that's weird. Oh yeah, he did keep his word and so I filled that application out and then um I actually so I actually study abroad Junior First semester.

48:52.76
sharonpak5
Okay.

48:54.79
Hyunrae
Which um I'm not sure if it was a greatest idea, especially if you're like recruiting um or or whatever you call it. But I ended up going to study abroad and then I did my phone call interview there and I did my final interview there. Um, and then.

49:04.38
sharonpak5
Ah.

49:09.60
sharonpak5
Okay.

49:14.24
Hyunrae
By god's Grace I got the position I got the intention. Yeah yeah.

49:17.57
sharonpak5
Wow. Okay, so your junior years when you first got your first ah engineering internship with Microsoft. Okay, and then did just keep going back every summer and then you got your full time gig or what happened.

49:25.50
Hyunrae
Deaths deaths. Yes, um.

49:31.38
Hyunrae
Yeah, Junior summer and then I went to my senior year and then I did one semester senior graduated and then went straight into my job. Yeah, yeah, so.

49:43.70
sharonpak5
Gotcha Okay, and so obviously your team liked you when you're interning there right? and so what do you think you did in your internship for you to be successful for your team to want to bring you back.

49:54.31
Hyunrae
Oh that's a good question. Um I did so let me preface by saying Microsoft um, in general has a pretty high return rate or a return offer rate and so it's not it doesn't take that much. It doesn't I would say.

50:03.76
sharonpak5
Okay.

50:11.23
Hyunrae
For me I think it was a showing grit and showing like hey I do care like I will put in the hours to like see like to follow up on my commitment. Um and I think that's all that really took I think like my software engineering skills at least compared to my peers weren't um.

50:11.92
sharonpak5
The.

50:21.98
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

50:30.66
Hyunrae
Weren't extraordinary weren't above average or anything. Um, but I did see through a project I did finish my project and was able to present it and um, it's It's actually currently still used live Um, and so yeah I think that's all that really matter I think.

50:33.46
sharonpak5
Um.

50:45.52
sharonpak5
Wow.

50:50.44
Hyunrae
Yeah, like even I Actually there was a point where I thought I wouldn't get the return offer. Um, yeah I because halfway through the halfway through my internship there was like I K with my manager and I showed him like the thing think kind of confident I was like.

50:53.62
sharonpak5
Why. Yeah, okay.

51:07.62
Hyunrae
Like hey this is what I built so far. Ah, and it was like like he he looked so disappointed and like I I still remember it very very vividly. Um, um because I hate disappointed people. Um.

51:07.90
sharonpak5
Yeah.

51:21.94
sharonpak5
So okay.

51:26.50
Hyunrae
But man this guy was like did not give me like a single like assuring nod or anything he was like staring at it the entire time and then I finished presenting it to him and he's like Henry have you like read the design doc and I was like what do you mean? I wrote the design dog like. Ah, and he and he's like this is not what I had in mind for your project like this isn't like this isn't as it is right now useful to anyone and ah, who yeah you you just played it off on.

51:53.90
sharonpak5
Day day.

52:01.63
sharonpak5
Yeah, yeah.

52:01.77
Hyunrae
So I was crushed I was crushed I like thought my world was coming like like like falling apart? Um, but um, that man Never Great. Manager never had bad intentions for me. Um, and from that moment I did whatever like. I put I did put in extra hours like some evenings in the office to yeah, make this whatever he had in store. Whatever he had in mind and yeah, um I think that response that behavior towards his feedback was probably a good indicator for him.

52:38.91
Hyunrae
Yeah.

52:39.55
sharonpak5
Where you're very receptive to the feedback and you're like okay let me change it now to make it look like how you want it to look like versus continuing down this bad path where ah, you're not really impressed with whatever I did even though I thought you would beat have a idea you're like oh shoot.

52:48.16
Hyunrae
Um, exactly exactly and like not being deensive like I think there is like a world where I can be like what the heck this is your fault like you should have checked in on me like like you should pull me a clear like.

52:54.87
sharonpak5
And.

52:58.74
sharonpak5
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

53:03.26
Hyunrae
I'm not I'm not a lie I had those thoughts I was like dude like really like like you're going to tell me halfway into this project that this wasn't like like I've told you like like I've shown you the design doc. Um, but yeah like I think when you're an intern and you're looking for a return offer you really have to be someone that.

53:14.81
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

53:22.63
sharonpak5
Yeah, for sure, especially if you want to come back to the same team right? and get a full time offer and you have to see them every day for the rest of your life. Yeah.

53:22.98
Hyunrae
Ah, your manager wants to work with on exactly right, right? right? right? So yeah, there is no way I was going to talk back to this man. Um, and ultimately I'm very thankful for. Ah, yeah, the impact that he had on me. Yeah.

53:44.13
sharonpak5
Okay, and so going back like looking back now that you've been at Microsoft for about 3 years now um what would you have done differently in your internship if you had to do it all over again, knowing that your manager wasn't happy with you like what would you have done differently from your end to make sure that you wouldn't have had to have the same experience again.

54:01.58
Hyunrae
So this is really this is pretty clichey but a cliche ah vice but it is to ask dumb questions. Um, yeah I was really scared of asking some questions um hoping not to be that annoying intern.

54:09.40
sharonpak5
Um, and.

54:13.32
sharonpak5
Are earth.

54:18.53
Hyunrae
Um, but me not asking enough questions or at least bothering my mentor or my manager enough led me to that state where we had very different ideas of the product. Um, so that is something I would have definitely worked on number 2 is um.

54:29.13
sharonpak5
Ah.

54:37.95
Hyunrae
Yeah, like I would say because I interned around where I lived so I did grow up in the Seattle area and my internship was in Seattle area at Redmond more specifically didn't really seek a lot of connections because I had my friends already here. Um.

54:49.92
sharonpak5
Are ah.

54:53.38
sharonpak5
The.

54:56.35
Hyunrae
But truly like the people especially at some of these companies that you meet during your internships are some of the smartest people you'll ever meet. Um, and I like in hindsight I see some people that I've connected with from my internship go on to do really cool and amazing things.

55:05.15
sharonpak5
Um.

55:16.27
Hyunrae
Cool companies and I wondered hey maybe if I like had deeper like more meaningful relationships with these people. Maybe they would have inspired me to do something else as well or like go pursue things that aren't completely conventional. Um, so yeah, it's It's really.

55:16.36
sharonpak5
Um.

55:25.72
sharonpak5
Are.

55:35.89
Hyunrae
Um, truly some of the smartest people I've met some of the coolest people I've met were at my internships and I regret not falling up with them after the internship. Yeah.

55:45.50
sharonpak5
Gotcha Okay, and so I really like your ah question asking one because I feel like now that you're on the other side I don't allow you but I had the exact same feelings when I was an internet boeing and I was like scared to ask questions and I also got called up by my manager so we share that sentiment there right.

55:55.90
Hyunrae
Um, one la.

56:02.55
sharonpak5
So ask questions Even if you're scared because I think now on the other side right? where we have interns I Honestly don't inspect anything from my interns at all like if they ask me questions even if it's like a stupid question like if it's my co-worker asking me the question on libra like what the heck you know.

56:11.54
Hyunrae
Um, ah.

56:19.49
Hyunrae
Ah, yeah.

56:19.68
sharonpak5
But if it's like an intern asking me a question like you can ask me anything and honestly I don't think it's a stupid question because I expect nothing of you I don't know if you feel the same way.

56:27.55
Hyunrae
Yeah, actually there are stupid questions just to be clear. There are questions if you could if you if the answer could be easily looked up or um, yeah, if it's easily Google like searchable then that's on you. That's a bad question. Um, but otherwise.

56:33.10
sharonpak5
True.

56:43.48
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

56:44.73
Hyunrae
Otherwise yeah, like exactly what you're saying being on the opposite side when my mente ask questions like it's just so normal like like you almost have this like I've been there so like I completely understand and yeah.

56:52.97
sharonpak5
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely I think that for the whole like googling thing right? It's like Google it first ask questions when you get stuck but not a second before right.

57:02.49
Hyunrae
Then.

57:08.81
Hyunrae
Um, yeah.

57:09.50
sharonpak5
Um, because if you ask questions before and then you figure it out later then it's like Bret you're wasting my time or like um I think the joke was have you ever seen the link where you'd like send it and you you literally Google it for them.

57:18.45
Hyunrae
Yes, yes, it's like an acronym like search that for you Google that for you or something. yeah yeah yeah I've sent that. Ah yeah.

57:24.85
sharonpak5
Let me Google that for you yeah has someone ever sent that to you.

57:36.20
Hyunrae
And some people man not not to my not to my coworkers to like friends not not to court. No absolutely never ever said that link in a professional setting. Oh yeah, have you sent that? oh.

57:41.36
sharonpak5
Um, ah okay I see out is um oh ok, a sure just getting no.

57:55.31
Hyunrae
Want to say um also another or while we're on that topic Definitely ah another another role is don't don't start your question by like just sending them like hi or hello or are you free. Never do that. Never do that.

57:55.37
sharonpak5
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but ah.

58:08.84
sharonpak5
Yes I hate that I hate that.

58:14.70
Hyunrae
Yeah, just just such a. It's yeah, it's super annoying and you'll know once you get those yourself and then also just like a bonus tip I guess is like whenever you ask questions I would always detail out what you know so Far. Ah. Ah, regarding Whatever you're asking whatever like let's say you're stuck on like a bug or a problem. You always kind of want to outline hey I've tried this this and that um and I'm still stuck what are your thoughts and things like that. So.

58:35.10
sharonpak5
Um.

58:45.92
sharonpak5
And to add on that last tip that bonus tip that you have I don't like getting a block of text message like a block of text like a whole paragraph I'm like but I'm not gonna read that right, especially over like teams. Um like but when people give me like a bulleted list. Things as they've done then I actually read it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so they give me like 1 or 2 sentences and then like bullets of like 1 sentence each of like every single bullet then I actually read it. But if it's like a whole paragraph I'm like bro ain't no one.

59:02.95
Hyunrae
Ah, ah hey I That's that's good for me to know why.

59:10.78
Hyunrae
Ah, ah, ah mean but for sure for sure. Yeah.

59:19.93
sharonpak5
And got time to read that you know so yeah, but ok, any last ah words of wisdom or advice for current college students who want to end up at Microsoft because right you're an inspiration as as much as as humble as you are. Yeah, an inspiration for kids out there.

59:42.80
Hyunrae
Ah, ah, any last piece of wisdom I would say yeah ah with computer science If You have a desire but you don't think it's for you. Give it a good try like like a really good like even when you think you gave it a good Try. Give it one more try I would say and then um I would say with this whole um job applying process especially in computer Science. It is a numbers game. Um, your.

59:58.51
sharonpak5
And.

01:00:12.58
Hyunrae
The whether you got accepted rejected at 1 company this means very little um in my opinion and you just ultimately have to like send out applications to almost every company that you could think of and yeah um yeah I guess what i'm.

01:00:27.42
sharonpak5
And apply a year early a.

01:00:31.51
Hyunrae
Yeah, apply early apply early and yeah, don't just don't make it don't make it a big deal. It's really not a big deal. Yeah, that's all I had to say.

01:00:39.88
sharonpak5
Okay, perfect. Thank you so much Howie. This was awesome and I appreciate you I appreciate your time and this is super fun.

01:00:50.89
Hyunrae
Of course, of course, Thank you so much. This is really cool What you're doing and I support you and yeah for any early listeners just make sure you hit subscribe to whatever platform you're listening to and share it with whoever might need. Ah yeah, career.

01:01:09.32
sharonpak5
Awesome! Thank you I'm a pause recording now.

01:01:09.73
Hyunrae
Career vice. So great job sharing. Yeah.