Liberal Arts to Working in IT

NOT studying computer science, Alan-Michael pivots from Liberal Arts, and lands a successful career as an IT consultant, where he learns how to code on his own!

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are solely my guest's and my own. They do not express the views or opinions of our employers.

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are solely my guest's and my own. They do not express the views or opinions of our employers.

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Transcript

00:01.32
sharonpak5
Allen Michael welcome to tech exploited. Um, we have been friends for about a yearish now we met through 1 of my co-workers and we hang out all the time you somehow ended up in my hometown California and I'm somehow in Washington how did that happen I don't know. Ah.

00:21.70
Alan_Michael
Straighter places are yeah who.

00:21.12
sharonpak5
Um, you? Yeah, we trade to places I'm a little jealous mom. Be honest with you just a little bit. Um, you got your associates degree in the arts that went to the university of Washington and got your bachelor's degree in interdisciplinary. Arts and sciences. That's probably the longest major name ever and it's like what does it even mean you know like what is interdisciplinary arts and sciences perfect and what is the whole world. All know.

00:40.22
Alan_Michael
Um, yeah, what is that even I don't really know what it is so.

00:58.33
sharonpak5
And then somehow with that degree and something that no one knows what it is um, you ended up pivoting into a functional analyst role which you kind of described to me as something similar to I T and so as someone.

01:00.22
Alan_Michael
Yeah, yeah.

01:08.77
Alan_Michael
Staff. So.

01:13.35
sharonpak5
With a very non-conventional background.

01:16.84
Alan_Michael
Um, sir. Yeah.

01:20.63
sharonpak5
Ah, like how how did you do that like why? Why did you go into that. How did you get into that tell us how you pulled that off? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:31.70
Alan_Michael
Oh the transition. Yeah, it's really crazy because when I went to college right? like I absolutely wanted nothing to do with it necessarily like I liked computers. Um, but I wasn't like trying to work professionally in that space I just had no interest in it.

01:40.54
sharonpak5
Um, okay, but.

01:48.25
sharonpak5
Um, okay, um.

01:48.79
Alan_Michael
But I was working at a community college and that job had some like a technical role to it like a technical function I was actually managing like a Microsoft access database. Um, because I was in the financial aid office and my manager.

02:00.57
sharonpak5
Um, ah ok.

02:04.36
Alan_Michael
She was really really into like how technology can make our jobs more efficient I don't know if you know this but like financial aid offices are chronically understaffed like it. It's pretty bad. Ah yeah, that's exactly its but it seems forever to review. Someone's file. It's absolutely ridiculous.

02:07.34
sharonpak5
Ok.

02:13.70
sharonpak5
I didn't know this No wonder no one gets money.

02:24.14
sharonpak5
That's evil they do this on purpose huh. Oh.

02:25.26
Alan_Michael
It's completely Evil like oh we don't like to give all the money away. We'll just take a while to do it. Yeah, so that's a little behind the door there.

02:36.72
sharonpak5
Um, interesting. Ok.

02:40.53
Alan_Michael
But I was over a Microsoft access database. That's the first time I hadn't even heard our Microsoft access right? but it's never seen it in my life so she gave me that because we used it in some of our processing and then she's like oh by the way you should also learn sql and I was like what's that because also had no idea what that was either.

02:46.80
sharonpak5
See.

02:57.63
Alan_Michael
And so what she did is she threw a book on my desk and she said learn this that was it and I was like okay ah so I I did I learned it I studied it and the cool part is is that I learned how to both manage a database.

03:08.73
sharonpak5
Ah.

03:17.50
Alan_Michael
But then also how to transfer like data into it and transform it and kind of mess with the schema if I needed to because we pulled a lot of data from like federal data sources. They would basically send files to us. Well every few years they changed the schema and so I'd have to change the order of my columns.

03:17.37
sharonpak5
Um, ok.

03:33.54
Alan_Michael
So little stuff like that right? It's like easy entry level kind of it work. But oh good question so is schema is essentially like a a blueprint. It's a blueprint about how a particular table like a database table is designed.

03:35.77
sharonpak5
What is a schema.

03:50.56
Alan_Michael
So it says okay column 1 is first name. Column 2 is last name blah blah blah blah and it just kind of lays it out in order because when you get a file especially if it's a file that's separated by commas. It's just got like data separated by commas.

03:50.59
sharonpak5
Um, ok.

04:08.16
sharonpak5
Um, ah.

04:09.10
Alan_Michael
All that data gets loaded in order. So if your database table doesn't have the columns in the right order you're going to end up with data in their wrong place. Yeah so I had to learn all of that. No one taught me how to do this right? I just had to like learn it. But.

04:17.32
sharonpak5
Gotcha Yay and that makes sense. Yeah, you got the book though you got the book of truth Yeah sequel for dummies.

04:25.78
Alan_Michael
I got the book learn sequel in 5 minutes like that was the book. It really was though it really was though and so I got a reputation for being good at that part and then the guy that I reported to because I didn't really report to the boss who told me to learn sequel she was like.

04:39.11
sharonpak5
Um, ok.

04:44.74
Alan_Michael
2 people above me the one I reported to pieced out like a month after I got there, he just left for another job. He calls me I think it was like a year later he's like hey Allen Michael oh like what's up the middle of the workday they we were.

04:49.51
sharonpak5
Okay.

05:01.60
sharonpak5
Um.

05:03.10
Alan_Michael
Hiring for this job right now. He's like it's a little bit different than what you do. It's a lot more I t but you'll make double what you're making now and they really need somebody but I was over I was like I'll apply right away and I did.

05:04.58
sharonpak5
Are.

05:12.15
sharonpak5
Um, you're like stay less ah be there.

05:19.75
sharonpak5
Um, ah.

05:21.66
Alan_Michael
And the interview rounds for that were grueling they had me do this is crazy because it's a government job right? This isn't like I don't know like a big tech firm or anything like that. Yeah, kind of so we have like a government agency that oversees all the community colleges in the state of Washington.

05:28.37
sharonpak5
Because still with the school at the community college right.

05:39.66
sharonpak5
Um, oh interesting. Ok.

05:40.91
Alan_Michael
Yeah, and so they're rolling them all to new software because they were in charge of doing the rollout and so they were hiring people to help with that project. So it's very much government still but they put me through 3 interviews back to back.

05:50.60
sharonpak5
Um, ok.

05:55.81
sharonpak5
Like on. Ah, what do they call them like when you interview for like big their panels right? But not really like a panel or just like you have like 30 minute like sessions like back to back with people is that what you you're saying like yeah like one person.

05:58.26
Alan_Michael
So.

06:06.40
Alan_Michael
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was like is it really? Oh Gosh They're not big.

06:14.33
sharonpak5
Okay, that's pretty normal though like for big yeah like with Apple when I was interviewing with Apple out of 8 person like back to back interview loop they're called interview loops. That's what I was looking for um Amazon was for blue origin was for. But Apple was 8 yeah, yeah, so I think they're a little more. Maybe they weren't as common back then but with like bigger tech companies is pretty common.

06:33.13
Alan_Michael
Oh 8 that's crazy. Moon oh that's wild I guess I would expect it for I mean 8 seems like a lot my god that's way too many? Well they put me through 3 like back to back to back. This is not.

06:53.50
sharonpak5
Um, you're like this is this quay. Yeah.

07:00.99
Alan_Michael
So is possible. Yeah, it was. It was definitely crazy. But then they hire me on and then I was in that job for 5 years now

07:07.81
sharonpak5
Ok, it was like up into very recently right.

07:12.64
Alan_Michael
It was up until recently I got tired of it because the project was done and then we were basically just doing maintenance at that point's like the fun part was over I did yeah yeah.

07:18.83
sharonpak5
You gave up the Golden Handcuffs right? like you get pension from working from the government you get paid a nice cushy salary. You are working fully remotely right? like what in the world.

07:31.29
Alan_Michael
Yeah I was yeah, why would I give that up right? You know so it's really funny right? I T It's interesting. There's different like layers to I t.

07:38.55
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

07:49.39
Alan_Michael
You have the guys who they are in charge of like the infrastructure you need a computer they need to like monitor the network like that's their job. They support the business. The section of I T I was on was the one that was closest to the customer and so it's very much.

07:49.50
sharonpak5
Um, ok.

07:54.28
sharonpak5
Um, yes.

08:06.72
Alan_Michael
Not just I t It's a lot of project management and it's a lot of like customer relationship management. So you're kind of like a consultant while also being the I T professional.

08:17.88
sharonpak5
Um, what does that mean like practically like on a day to day.

08:19.20
Alan_Michael
Yeah, so on a day to basis What it looks like is that you sit down right? You you have like tickets that you work right? But it's not like tickets that say oh I don't know my browser doesn't work help me like no, it's not that.

08:28.70
sharonpak5
Is it.

08:34.75
sharonpak5
Are.

08:36.81
Alan_Michael
It's someone's trying to use a software to like give someone money or to issue a refund or whatever the heck a school needs to do and something isn't working the way it's supposed to so you get that ticket right? It could be a bug. What's up.

08:43.68
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

08:49.15
sharonpak5
Yeah, but I'm like but wouldn't that be like that other company's problem and not your problem.

08:54.74
Alan_Michael
Oh you would think so but the vendors don't deal with that problem. So the vendor will just sell you the software the one who actually implements the software locally it manages it locally. It's your problem unless you can prove to the vendor that.

09:00.39
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

09:12.54
Alan_Michael
It's their fault and even then they may not fix it. They may just tell you to work around it.

09:13.00
sharonpak5
Ok huh. Okay, so let's say like you're paying your tuition through your portal right? like online and you're using like some other random company software to pay your tuition and then like someone's payment doesn't go through.

09:22.18
Alan_Michael
Okay.

09:32.97
sharonpak5
Do you now have to solve that problem yourself or do you go back to that company that you bought the software from and you're like hey fix it.

09:39.78
Alan_Michael
Well that depends on the source of the error. So I would try to solve it myself first and the person that I'm working with would expect me to solve it right? That's the expectation. So it's usually pretty urgent if I can prove that it's something we can't fix on our side.

09:47.46
sharonpak5
Um, ah.

09:51.79
sharonpak5
Um, sure.

09:58.16
Alan_Michael
I would issue a bug to the vendor and convince them to fix it and even if they do commit to fixing it. They're going to do it on their timeline. Not mine. So I still have to solve the problem.

10:02.39
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

10:06.41
sharonpak5
Are okay, not makes sense. Ok so like how do you because I'm the.

10:12.41
Alan_Michael
Um, it's crazy. Absolutely crazy.

10:24.74
sharonpak5
Terms of like how I use software right? I like a day to day. So like if I want to use like Photoshop or like illustrator or something like that I don't know and it's not working properly I'm not going to sit there and try and like troubleshoot the software where I'm just like oh I can't like do that in the software I give up I my go use a different software or something right.

10:24.87
Alan_Michael
Okay. Yeah.

10:41.48
Alan_Michael
Yeah, sure So you're um.

10:42.66
sharonpak5
So like for you guys since you're I T are you like sitting there like modifying the code like what does that even mean like.

10:47.70
Alan_Michael
Yeah, it depends so to give you some context what I worked on was it's called like an Erp software enterprise resource planning. So for those who don't know what that is. It's something that we borrow for manufacturing. It's software that.

10:59.19
sharonpak5
Um.

11:04.73
Alan_Michael
Ah, business runs all of its processes through. Basically they can do their entire workflow through the software right? A college has a lot of business processes Admissions Tuition Financial aid grading graduation like everything right? They have a ton of stuff that they have to do enrollments.

11:05.64
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

11:21.62
sharonpak5
Are.

11:24.56
Alan_Michael
So what ends up happening is as if it gets if something gets broken right? like there's no alternative really and then we're left with either. We find a way to modify the code which.

11:39.91
Alan_Michael
That's a really funny thing too right? There's a risk to doing that we'll get into that later, you could try to modify the code and risk. Yeah, you can breaking it sure. But even more importantly, the vendor if you have any issues with like your little customization. The vendor isn't going to support you at that point. So if you issue a bug report to them.

11:43.45
sharonpak5
We could break it the software.

11:56.89
Alan_Michael
Because something isn't working right? They'll be like oh you modified this? Well it's your fault you guys just have to figure it out. Yeah, so normally what you do is like a workaround until the vendor fixes it or you figure out what's causing the problem on the user side because usually it's like some weird data they have like something inconsistent that's causing the bug.

12:02.83
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

12:14.63
sharonpak5
And ok and so with you since you don't have like a Cs background or whatever right? like at all hey did you learn that all from Yourqquel Book or what.

12:16.34
Alan_Michael
You have to go find that and then fix it. Yeah and. None no no actually I learned everything on the job right? I had about a year we were supporting 3 clients when I got on and I had about a year

12:35.59
sharonpak5
Um, ok, um.

12:43.72
Alan_Michael
Kind of figure out like what some of the problems were before we started bringing new people on well what's funny actually it's in my fifth it was like my fourth month it was my fourth month maybe it was my third ah the person who was working with me like the senior in the group.

12:50.24
sharonpak5
Um, ok, interesting.

13:02.33
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

13:02.58
Alan_Michael
She went on vacation and she had a ton of stacked up vacation so she was gone from like the beginning November through basically all of December so I was by myself. They let her do that. They just left me out there flapping. They're like oh yeah'll figure it out.

13:09.67
sharonpak5
They let her do that.

13:15.99
sharonpak5
Broke that would never fly at a normal company like never what the you're saying that if I had to work government I could go and just disappear for like half the year and it's all good like what.

13:24.53
Alan_Michael
Yeah, yeah, you can you can? yeah beautiful. Great perks. Great Great perks I did yes now I can't even go on vacation. No paid vacation for me.

13:31.74
sharonpak5
Okay, good to know good to know and you loved it.

13:40.15
sharonpak5
Yeah, ok, ok, interesting, questionable decisions but ok so your boss lady went on vacation for like half a year

13:43.57
Alan_Michael
Yeah, oh yeah, she went on for half a year we were the same level which is funny. She just had a lot more experience than I did.

14:02.18
sharonpak5
Are.

14:02.26
Alan_Michael
So she went on vacation for like half the year Well two months whatever and something really important broke at 1 of our colleges. Um like one of those things where like if it doesn't get fixed like their entire office like stops like it. Nothing happens right.

14:08.54
sharonpak5
Ok.

14:17.57
sharonpak5
Of course something like that would happen once she disappears right? That's how it always goes. Yeah, yeah.

14:20.37
Alan_Michael
Yeah, all course of course and the worst part is is that I was working on the financial aid Module part of the application which is how everyone gets their money. So now no money can go out until the problem gets fixed and we're talking like end of winter quarter.

14:36.95
sharonpak5
Um, ah if.

14:39.15
Alan_Michael
No end of Fall Quarter beginning of winter. So a lot of money has to get out the door right? broken and I was the only one who who could fix it I Guess like no one else knew how to fix it I didn't know how to miss it. Yeah, that was it.

14:41.92
sharonpak5
Um, we love that. Ah.

14:53.40
sharonpak5
But you're like I don't know how to do anything.

14:59.11
Alan_Michael
I Had no idea I had no idea we've been at consultants and I asked one of them and they didn't know either and I was like okay well I have to fix this or nothing happens.

15:05.97
sharonpak5
Okay, so guys the moral of the story is go join I T for some random government job know nothing and then figure it out. Ah.

15:18.10
Alan_Michael
That's exactly what happens but literally exactly what happens I had no support whatsoever. No yeah, it was just a lot of documentation. It was a lot of research and what's crazy is that I did figure it out.

15:24.77
sharonpak5
Um, ok, ok.

15:34.27
Alan_Michael
Which is nuts. No one knew anything about it but I did figure it out and how did I figure it out So when something like arts.

15:35.70
sharonpak5
How.

15:41.64
sharonpak5
How did the and the interdisciplinary. How did the interdisciplinary arts and sciences major figure out your crazy software I T problem.

15:55.79
Alan_Michael
It's all those critical thinking skills. They taught us contemplating the theory of world government. Oh translated to solving I T problems.

16:02.18
sharonpak5
Um.

16:12.30
sharonpak5
Okay, so you pass your 3 interviews.

16:15.99
Alan_Michael
That's all thats interviews just talk to? no I just read it was basically yet, there's this long sqquel error that came out and I understood sqquel thanks to my last job hooray for learn sqquel in 5 minutes or an hour or whatever it was.

16:23.60
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

16:32.15
sharonpak5
Yeah ed.

16:33.40
Alan_Michael
So I could read it I was like okay great I didn't know what any of the tables were right I knew what the statements meant but I didn't know anything about the data and then I just sort of looked it up right? So there's you know, like reference guides like on the internet for that particular piece of software and I just looked it up.

16:47.82
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

16:50.30
Alan_Michael
And I read the code again and and again I looked it up read the code again and again I looked it up and eventually I learned how to do something called a trace which is you basically outline what's happening at every step of a program and then it spits out like the entire result to you.

17:05.13
sharonpak5
Um, okay wait What? yeah like and please reexplain I have no idea what you're talking about like yeah.

17:09.91
Alan_Michael
So yeah, yeah, all course. Yeah, so imagine this right imagine if someone's like doing a speech right? and then you're over here like taking notes and you're transcribing what it is. They're saying Essentially that's what a trace does but for a program.

17:22.41
sharonpak5
Um, sure sure.

17:29.89
Alan_Michael
Program runs and then the trace basically writes down everything that's happening. It's like taking notes right? and then if something happens like Oopsie There's a bug it will like spit out the error.

17:33.88
sharonpak5
Um, Huh Ok ok.

17:41.90
sharonpak5
Wait. So now it does that automatically for you right? when you compile your programs like it just tells you like line 12 is like a bug here like go fix. It have a deal.

17:52.76
Alan_Michael
Oh yeah, like a lot of Ides like integrated development environments. They will have that trace sort of like it's not really a full trace. It'll just tell you like the error if there is 1

17:59.49
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

18:06.70
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

18:09.72
Alan_Michael
But if you want to go into your idea and run a full trace you could and you could see like oh this value got assigned to this variable the next step This is what happened the next step. So it's not just the errors that you get from a trace but even the steps that pass successfully.

18:23.81
sharonpak5
Um, ah, interesting. Ok ok, ah.

18:25.67
Alan_Michael
Yeah, so I learned how to do that. Basically I just looked it up I was like how do I do this I ran it and then that's how I was able to figure out that there was some null data where there shouldn't be noll data and we were able to fix it. Yeah, it was done. It was great.

18:37.10
sharonpak5
Um, gotcha That's awesome I T bludgeon.

18:45.34
Alan_Michael
Legendary just like that.

18:47.89
sharonpak5
Okay, um, and so was that like a majority of your like day to day then just like customer service talking to angry customers who are like my programs not working your program sucks help me. Etc And then you just like sit there and troubleshoot or.

19:03.20
Alan_Michael
Sort of so that's what it was during the maintenance phase when we just rolled everyone on the software. But while we were still rolling people on a good function like a good part of my day I guess was a lot of like project management. It was a lot of like trainings.

19:12.33
sharonpak5
Um.

19:22.30
Alan_Michael
And coming up with new but business processes every time there was like a new law passed or like new funding made available. It was very much like onboarding and then also like troubleshooting like problems from longtime customers. So it's like a little bit of both.

19:29.87
sharonpak5
Um.

19:40.28
sharonpak5
Okay, and so what what does it mean when you would like sit do onboarding so that's just like vetting out new programs and seeing which programs you going to bring in house or what does that mean.

19:53.67
Alan_Michael
That is so this is a section of it T called implementation right? So imagine that you have I don't know like a restaurant right? and they're like oh I want to buy this new point of sale system and you're the vendor so you sell them a new point of sales system. Well then how do you integrate that point of sales system into.

19:59.69
sharonpak5
Um, ok.

20:13.62
Alan_Michael
Like their restaurant like their unique ways of doing things. Well you need someone to implement that to be like on the ground and say hey this is how you do this? Oh we like we have this policy like this kind of rewards program. Okay, let's see if our software can do that for you if it can't let's customize it Our job was implementing. The E or P software at new colleges which means that we had to go there and we had to outline what their business processes were and then they would tell us hey this is what we do. This is how we do it and then we have to try to like retrofitt it essentially onto what the software could do and if there was a gap we had to figure out how to like. Make it work.

20:52.88
sharonpak5
Gotcha so that's why I say you're kind of like a consultant so you'll like take the software they say we want XY and z and you're like okay we have the software. Let's make the software work for your needs for your financial aid. Whatever interesting I didn't realize I t did stuff like that like to me.

20:58.39
Alan_Michael
Um, and then exactly yeah yeah, that's exactly right? It's crazy.

21:10.60
sharonpak5
But I t is like yo I want my monitor to move up like one inch can you like fix it and like move it for me like have a deal that's like literally what I did today.

21:11.87
Alan_Michael
Ah.

21:18.60
Alan_Michael
Um, ah yeah, sure. Okay, yeah.

21:26.19
sharonpak5
Like yeah and I was like yo Ben you know like can you help me like what my monitor stand thing like that ah law are like yo I need an ethernet cable like can you bring me an ethernet cable because mine's not working I already troublesot like travel shot it troubleho.

21:39.66
Alan_Michael
Ah, trouble shat it. That's how I feel what I'm done troubleshooting I trouble shot that out nice. That's a good word. So.

21:53.50
sharonpak5
I troubleshaded it for you.

21:54.74
Alan_Michael
So.

22:00.85
sharonpak5
So I know it's a cable. So can you now bring me a cable to have a deal. You know like that's how I always like saw I t like I didn't realize that you guys did all this other stuff outside of that. Um, ah oh that's interesting like that makes sense I just didn't realize that that's what I T did.

22:04.40
Alan_Michael
Ah, yeah.

22:16.77
Alan_Michael
Um, yeah, there's a lot of sections of I t and a lot of people. It sucks because when I'm trying to explain my job to someone. They'll be like oh what do you do. And I had to think about how to tell them what I do in like 5 words or less and like there's no way I could do this I'll just say work at it.

22:31.95
sharonpak5
And then they're like oh so you're the guy who I call when like my computer sound plugged in and then you plug it in for me and you're like there you go.

22:36.66
Alan_Michael
Yeah, ah exactly yeah I Beg sure that's exactly what I do I can't explain this to you right now. Yeah.

22:47.39
sharonpak5
Ah, ok, interesting and so um, would you say though they like the 2 most common sectors of right? ah of I t or what.

22:59.45
Alan_Michael
Oh like um hardware and like implementation or guess infrastructure and implementation. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

23:01.82
sharonpak5
Yeah, yeah, so implementations Obviously the one I'm thinking of right? Probably what most people are familiar with when they're like call I t right? Um, the help desk essentially is what you see us as um, but you're talking about the infrastructure part of I T like.

23:14.32
Alan_Michael
Ah, yeah.

23:20.73
sharonpak5
Being the consultant for all these different things. They guys have um.

23:22.41
Alan_Michael
Oh yeah, so that part I would consider implementation and then the other part I would consider infrastructure right? So like help desk I would look at is infrastructure because their client is primarily someone who is in-house like you if you have computer troubles right? Those I T guys are infrastructure.

23:36.94
sharonpak5
Um, ok yeah, okay, and then so are those 2 the 2 like branches of I t basically like everything falls into one of those 2 or are there more branches.

23:42.17
Alan_Michael
Because they support you.

23:51.85
Alan_Michael
There's more branches I would say you have infrastructure is one branch I would say the next branch you have is how would I want to say this? um I guess development.

23:56.10
sharonpak5
Um, ok.

24:06.18
Alan_Michael
And I hesitate to say this because development kind of runs across all the branches but there is like a branch that's devoted entirely to like developing new features for software. So I consider development like its own separate branch even though you get development really everywhere.

24:15.55
sharonpak5
Um, and e.

24:22.87
Alan_Michael
So there's that there's development a lot of people want to be stuff for developers. So that's kind of what they're thinking of the of that is technically IT yeah that's all information technology right? like everyone is wrapped up. It's I t.

24:26.13
sharonpak5
But that's I t.

24:33.90
sharonpak5
Um, ah.

24:41.10
Alan_Michael
Now they don't consider themselves I t because whenever you say I t like oh you're in the help desk right? But yeah, it's IT of course it all falls under I t.

24:41.88
sharonpak5
yeah yeah huh okay that's interesting. So you're saying as someone who worked in I t that everything's IT but if I are to go.

24:56.79
Alan_Michael
Everything is I t.

25:01.68
sharonpak5
Like my friend that works at Microsoft and be like Henry I know that you work on azure stuff right? But you're also I t he'd be like what you'd be like yeah.

25:01.79
Alan_Michael
Yeah, yeah, he would. There's no way he would not. It's a lot cooler to be like oh I'm a selfur engineer right? But what department are you under right.

25:16.18
sharonpak5
Um, okay, but then so here's a question for you I Would you consider yourself to be a software engineer but the I t.

25:21.70
Alan_Michael
No I would not consider myself to be a software engineer because I consider that development right? That's like the development component of it is software engineering. Yeah.

25:35.49
sharonpak5
Ok, it's like a square is a rectangle is but a rectangle is not a square. No way it's ah the opposite with me think it's like saying that yeah Square is.

25:39.10
Alan_Michael
Something like that.

25:48.91
sharonpak5
Not a erect. A rectangle is as.

25:52.76
Alan_Michael
But oh R Um geometry gery is rough.

25:55.28
sharonpak5
It's light but I cannot think a square is a type of rectangle. Yeah, but every rectangle is not a square. Yeah I think it's what it right? The first time. Okay.

26:04.62
Alan_Michael
Yeah I thought you did too. That's why I was like oh yeah, yeah, that's right, you did it somehow your instinct saved you.

26:12.30
sharonpak5
Las go.

26:19.63
sharonpak5
Okay, um, and so like would you consider like cybersec security to also fall under it I usually like but it is okay now would they also consider themselves to be.

26:23.40
Alan_Michael
Oh yeah, oh yeah, um, all of that I think they would I think when people think of it. They tend to think of like the operations side of it and Cyber security I would argue definitely falls in operations.

26:37.59
sharonpak5
Um, yeah, ok ok, and so then I'm assuming based on that like description of like 4 different areas of I t now right quote unquote I t.

26:41.36
Alan_Michael
Because it's about the security of the network.

26:47.76
Alan_Michael
Then yeah sure whether they want to admit it? yeah.

26:53.30
sharonpak5
Whether or not they think they're right here or not. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, they're mostly like compci majors right? And so did you feel like out of place or like how is I.

27:03.93
Alan_Michael
Ah, yeah, um.

27:08.00
Alan_Michael
Yeah, that's interesting right? because so what's funny is that I didn't like study compsi in college but I had like this identity crisis. So I went back to try to learn it.

27:17.64
sharonpak5
Um.

27:21.78
Alan_Michael
And so I started studying comsai on my own and then I was like this is trash. This is this does not help me at all. It's so I just stopped absolute trash.

27:22.22
sharonpak5
Um, ok.

27:32.33
sharonpak5
Um, who ok why? how wait? What? how? how did this not help you at all when you're like trying to figure how to read like Sql lines of code essentially right.

27:44.52
Alan_Michael
Um, Oh yeah, because like computer science as a theory right? doesn't really teach you that it teaches you about the theory of computation. Which is interesting and it's helpful If you're writing like complex programs. But for the most part you don't need to know the theory of computation to like understand a bug that just got thrown at you like if an error says hey try to insert of Null value. You can't do that.

27:57.85
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

28:11.75
Alan_Michael
You don't need to study the theory of computation to be like oh I can't insert Blank data here. Let me see what's blank right.

28:16.53
sharonpak5
Okay, and so then what did you study and instead if you weren't studying computer science for your job in night. T.

28:24.58
Alan_Michael
Ah, the job. Honestly, it was just the problems right? I had a coworker she was a manager but she wasn't my manager she was like horizontal to my manager and she would always say that. Yeah you know we get these compside grads and then we have to like tell them how the. How everything actually works it means that computer science and I think this is a problem actually in the industry that computer science and the programs that these colleges have the computer Science programs. They don't prepare you for a job.

28:40.77
sharonpak5
What what does that mean, how are you.

28:55.69
sharonpak5
Um.

28:58.42
Alan_Michael
And I t because the problems you're solving at the computer science level are so low level and most of the IT jobs that you're in are like several levels removed from that. So it's that.

29:12.89
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

29:14.11
Alan_Michael
It's a much you're basically in computer science you are looking at a lot of trees and you're like oh like this is how a tree grows and oh like these are all the parts of a tree but when you're in the real world in the it Space. You're not trying to look at trees like you're trying to look at the whole forest. And you're trying to understand like that environment as a whole, not an individual tree. You don't care how that individual tree works most of the time you don't need to know? yeah.

29:42.90
sharonpak5
Huh that makes sense. Ok I think that okay because obviously like I have a mechanical engineering background right? And so I use probably like 10% or less of what I learned in school on my day to day job. Um, but in my head.

29:46.22
Alan_Michael
Yeah, yeah.

29:53.39
Alan_Michael
And.

29:58.53
sharonpak5
Because computer science like you're writing in a different language for the most part right? or at least it's what I'm imagine it to be where you're like working a code right? So I'm like oh you learn code from school and so because you learn code from school and you're working in code every single day like.

30:03.64
Alan_Michael
Sure, Yeah, just ah, have.

30:14.20
Alan_Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

30:17.00
sharonpak5
All that stuff that you learn in school is more applicable if that makes sense because you're forced to work in that same like type of language every single day. But what you're saying is like you don't need to know all these random theories right? You probably only need to use like 10% if you had got in a cs degree which you obviously didn't.

30:33.43
Alan_Michael
I did not know.

30:35.86
sharonpak5
Um, you're like you basically just have to kind of understand the general overall picture and then just problem solving put in the right answer I Guess Question mark.

30:48.63
Alan_Michael
Yeah, yeah, because a lot of software that you deal with is very very high level right? Um, It's not really popular anymore to work on like low level machine code where you would need to have all of that theoretical knowledge right? All that's been done for you. A lot of the programming languages nowadays have figured out a lot of those problems and they just tell you hey like if you're trying to do this kind of search process here's like a recommended way to do it like a best practice. So a lot of that like you don't need to understand it at the lowest level now some guys who are in development.

31:12.00
sharonpak5
Are.

31:20.21
Alan_Michael
Like the ogs would tell you like you really do need to understand that because you can write much more efficient code much cleaner code. You know you can get a lot more performance but unless that is a part of your job. It wasn't a part of my job. So I just I didn't need to know it and you probably don't either.

31:36.75
sharonpak5
You're like that's why we're making Quantum computing does so we just have infinite levels of instantaneous. We need that efficiency anymore who cares? um.

31:38.79
Alan_Michael
Ah, like' going to care anymore. Nobody's going to care anymore. No one No one's going to care. It's ridiculous. Yeah.

31:54.35
sharonpak5
Ok, interesting. Um, and so obviously you learned like a hundred percent of the things on the job. Hey.

31:56.24
Alan_Michael
Hello.

32:02.38
Alan_Michael
Yeah, all of it. Basically even if you go to a comp site like even if you have a comp side degree I would argue in most IT jobs you do you will be learning probably eighty to 90% of it on the job. Ah, okay.

32:14.56
sharonpak5
And I relate to that right? Um, yeah, like I work with rockets now. Um and I feel like aerospace in general is just like very niche in terms of like the different um areas you can work in.

32:21.44
Alan_Michael
Aha.

32:29.15
Alan_Michael
Okay.

32:31.47
sharonpak5
That like don't exist in under like ah other industries. Um, because all the parts that we make are just like very low volume like very like specialize out of like this exotic metal that like you've never even like heard of before like mollib de Mu right was like what the heck is Maib the Mu Yeah yeah.

32:33.58
Alan_Michael
9

32:47.11
Alan_Michael
Sure what's what do you use that for I've never heard of that ever. Ah.

32:50.69
sharonpak5
It's a real metal. Um, it could be a lubricant. It could be. Ah yeah people call it Molly for short. Um it is a mineral. Not whatever you're thinking of.

33:01.26
Alan_Michael
Nice, Ah, fair enough.

33:10.75
sharonpak5
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I don't know it's just like it's a weird thing where I have friends who are like Cs and they're be like oh if you code you could code right? um.

33:17.15
Alan_Michael
Move.

33:20.66
sharonpak5
And it's like a very transferable skill where it's like aerospace if you like niche down into it. You're kind of like stuck in this like one world if you will That's like useless in any other field other than aerospace he Yeah yeah yeah, um, but anyways going back.

33:27.22
Alan_Michael
Ah, okay, yeah, yeah, nice.

33:40.54
sharonpak5
To how ah most people learn on the job Anyways, most stuff that they need Then what's the point I'm going to school.

33:45.59
Alan_Michael
Um, so I think school is useful because I'll talk about the compsite part first I guess it teaches you how to problem solve.

33:52.52
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

33:59.10
Alan_Michael
Right? So I was lucky in that I had like natural built in problem solving abilities where I could look at a program and logically understand what it's doing like intuitively right? and kind of back my way into how to solve it but not everyone.

34:04.59
sharonpak5
Um.

34:13.51
sharonpak5
Are ah.

34:15.76
Alan_Michael
Like born being able to do that right? or not everyone has a life experience that allows them to do that naturally and the good part about school is that you go and do your compsa you get to learn a lot of cool stuff most of it. You won't use but it teaches you how to walk through a program and how to solve a particular problem. So it's just all about like exercising your logic.

34:20.97
sharonpak5
Um, sure.

34:34.52
sharonpak5
Um, ok.

34:35.48
Alan_Michael
Is it worth the ridiculous sum amount of money they charge for it I don't know probably not um, but you don't really have a choice really unless you want to try to back your way into it like I did and that just requires a lot of people skills. Honestly, yeah.

34:41.49
sharonpak5
Um.

34:49.73
sharonpak5
Ok I mean and you have an edge there right? because you're going up against all these like closeted like nerds right.

34:58.79
Alan_Michael
Yeah, yeah, it's painful some of the interviews I had to do is absolutely painful. Ah you know it's so crazy right? I've seen some amazing technical backgrounds on things.

35:03.44
sharonpak5
So that's like about that. So the interviews I yet to do that are painful. What was painful about the interviews.

35:12.42
sharonpak5
Are.

35:15.00
Alan_Michael
Like things that are oppressive but you talk to these people and unfortunately they don't know how to communicate with the person and that's a big deal, especially if the section of I T you're in is really close to the customer like if you need to get requirements and you need to like.

35:24.47
sharonpak5
Um.

35:27.81
sharonpak5
Are.

35:33.84
Alan_Michael
Do a lot of documentation. You need to do a lot of training and you need to do a lot of communication back and forth when it comes to troubleshooting and you need to like talk to the vendor and like convince them to fix this bug that is a bug and that they should probably fix you have to be able to communicate written and or like you have to be able to do that.

35:45.65
sharonpak5
Um, no, no and.

35:52.40
Alan_Michael
And we would talk to people and they just could not like communicate like they're bad at listening. That's 1 thing that I saw a lot terrible listening skills. Um, lots of just talking very dryly about all the stuff they know it was bad horrible.

36:06.72
sharonpak5
Um, okay, and so what were things then that you looked for would you like prioritize people skills over technical skills then or what.

36:10.38
Alan_Michael
In.

36:17.96
Alan_Michael
I Would do it like this, you need to have good logic problem solving skills I would consider that to be the most important asset when it comes to working on it. The second most important asset I would say is probably communication skill because at the end of the day. That is a huge chunk of your job even as a developer. That's a huge chunk of your job I can tell you so many times I've kicked something back to a developer because they did not meet the requirements right? I communicated what the requirements were but they weren't listening properly.

36:38.35
sharonpak5
This.

36:46.52
sharonpak5
The.

36:54.00
Alan_Michael
And so we got something that was wrong and then I had to go back and developers say that.

36:55.84
sharonpak5
How do you knows like their fault though. Not your fault for not communicating it better. Yeah.

37:03.32
Alan_Michael
That's a great question. Um, that is a really good question I would say that it was usually a mixture of both right if I get something that's way way off and I've gotten things that were way way off I'm like look I.

37:10.45
sharonpak5
Are.

37:19.40
Alan_Michael
This is how I explained it I don't know how you got over here but I know I did not say it like this. So let's try this again and we've gotten into arguments about stuff like that total arguments. Yeah.

37:25.34
sharonpak5
Ok, ok, ok, interesting. Ok.

37:36.33
Alan_Michael
Because they're prideful right? Developers are really prideful when you tell them that the thing they did was wrong. They feel like insulted. Yeah.

37:40.87
sharonpak5
Well obviously he's like our baby right? It's like this set all these hours on this thing and you're like you are wrong like you didn't do what I asked you do. They're like what you mean i't do it I you know like yeah.

37:52.35
Alan_Michael
Or yeah, so that's why the communications important because you both had to be able to go back and forth and if one of you doesn't listen well or isn't picking up with the other person's putting down you end up wasting a lot of time.

38:01.30
sharonpak5
Um.

38:06.35
sharonpak5
Um, gotcha. Okay, and you don't like check in with them like in between like before they give you the product.

38:13.52
Alan_Michael
No, so generally I mean this is a good topic right? So generally when we're trying to get something new developed. What happens is we go to the developer. We say these are the requirements and then we come to an understanding in theory where they're like okay this is what you want we say.

38:20.24
sharonpak5
Are.

38:33.21
Alan_Michael
Yes, they're like okay this is what you want then we leave and at that point we don't really bother them until we get kind of their prototype right? We might bother them if it's taking a really long time but usually we have an expected timeline before we walk out of there.

38:36.98
sharonpak5
Um, ah.

38:41.80
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

38:51.21
sharonpak5
Gotcha.

38:52.50
Alan_Michael
So we do that and then what ends up happening is is that we test the prototype right? That's like the first phase of testing and at that point it's a pass or fail. This is like development testing. So it's pre. There's like 4 test phases.

38:58.80
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

39:03.99
sharonpak5
Ah.

39:07.81
sharonpak5
Are.

39:10.15
Alan_Michael
There's more but in our shop there was like 3 or 4 there's development. There's what we call system integration testing which is where you put that piece of software in like an older environment that has like some of the data you would be working with it's a little less clean and you see if it passes.

39:22.74
sharonpak5
Are ah.

39:28.48
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

39:28.90
Alan_Michael
And then you have what's called quality assurance testing and that is a more recent environment and ideally you get like a college user or an end user to test it. Whoever your customer is going to be they test it and then once it passes you can put it into production and do what's called confidence which is where you.

39:39.32
sharonpak5
Um, yeah, okay.

39:47.59
Alan_Michael
Look at it in the live environment. You just make sure that everything got moved over correctly. So we're working with the developer we're doing like the development testing at that stage just not system integration testing So we'll go into the development environment and we'll say okay this works the way we expect it to or no, it doesn't.

39:51.84
sharonpak5
Um, ok.

39:58.52
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

40:04.66
sharonpak5
Um, Gotcha interesting and so you ended up in in like an extremely technical role right? like super duper like in the weeds of technical things. Um without.

40:05.36
Alan_Michael
And if it doesn't we kick it back? Yeah mm.

40:18.84
Alan_Michael
So yeah.

40:22.32
sharonpak5
Ah, technical engineering background at all and so if there are other people that don't have a technical background and they want to do something similar. Would you say like oh I just got lucky to have a deal or like have you helped other people since you've been on the hiring committees for other people like what do you look for.

40:29.25
Alan_Michael
Um, yeah, yeah.

40:39.82
sharonpak5
Or like what makes you like actually give other people like a chance if you will versus you're like sorry no I testingle background even though I don't have one here's the door.

40:40.50
Alan_Michael
Um, will I yeah.

40:54.32
Alan_Michael
And ah, okay, you know what's interesting is there's actually a lot of roles in the it space that require a blend of technical acumen. But then also what I call like functional expertise So like domain knowledge.

41:02.82
sharonpak5
Um.

41:11.13
Alan_Michael
For example, let's say that you will use hospitals As an example, there's a lot of it jobs in hospitals where you need to know both how to work technical software. But then also you have to understand like how a hospital functions.

41:14.58
sharonpak5
Um, sure.

41:23.21
sharonpak5
Are ok.

41:28.60
Alan_Michael
Like the kind of business processes that they have and then have some experience with the software that they use to do that. So if you have good domain knowledge in a particular industry I think my best advice would be pick an industry and basically stay there. You don't necessarily need to have. Like the strongest technical background There's a lot of jobs that look for a blend of the 2 or you're both technical but you also have a lot of functional knowledge as well.

41:54.50
sharonpak5
So what does it mean to be like technical then so let's say you don't have like the cs background right? But let's say you worked in hospitals you're like a Cpa or something I don't know. Yeah.

42:01.38
Alan_Michael
Yeah I would say um, sure So let's say that you worked in Hospitals and I don't know. Maybe it's medical billing or something I have no idea. And so maybe what you did is you had a lot of experience working with medical billing software. Maybe you found bugs and you reported those to the vendor. Maybe you brand into like a lot of different kinds of errors and you troubleshot those yourself or troubleshat I guess you troublesha those yourself. That's a much better word.

42:33.31
sharonpak5
Ah, we coined a new term on Tech exploited guys troubleshotting. Ah.

42:35.37
Alan_Michael
Yeah, double shot. Ah shit it got that ah interdisciplinary Arts degree. You know you would have been. You would have been set.

42:40.92
sharonpak5
Um, it goes just hard. Ah.

42:45.98
sharonpak5
Ah.

42:51.89
sharonpak5
Yeah, for what the degree that no one that like the school doesn't even have a degree anymore which is crazy. Yeah, even the school didn't know what it was.

42:53.67
Alan_Michael
But no, they discontinued it. It was so sad that was that's crazy like said anymore. But.

43:08.00
sharonpak5
Yeah, ok.

43:10.98
Alan_Michael
Yeah, so maybe you're someone like that I'll consider that to have like technical ability.

43:15.85
sharonpak5
How do you like? ah ask them about it in an interview like what the questions that you asking them.

43:20.52
Alan_Michael
They're very functional questions right? So I was a part of like the financial I know it was a functional question. So as an example I was in the financial aid Module of our application right? So you would ask them like hey if you had to do this.

43:22.65
sharonpak5
What is a functional question like yeah yeah.

43:33.94
sharonpak5
Um.

43:37.42
Alan_Michael
How would you execute it in this particular software. Okay.

43:41.38
sharonpak5
Let's do a little demo test right now because I'm like I'm like a quote unquote like problem solveer I know absolutely nothing about computer science right? Yeah, if you ask me like let's say I'm like oh want to go into I T now like what what is it? a quote unquote like functional, whatever that means.

43:53.91
Alan_Michael
Ra.

43:59.46
sharonpak5
Like technical question that you're like oh let me see if this person is technical. Let's pretend like you don't know my background at all and you're like I don't know so this girls like yeah yeah.

44:06.15
Alan_Michael
Another for it. Yeah, nothing about it. Okay, um, give me a little bit I gonna need a little bit of background before I come up with this question So at your job. Like what software do you use to like do your job from day to day.

44:23.10
sharonpak5
Um, this thing called jewels it's our Era P software that's built in house.

44:27.23
Alan_Michael
Okay, and so what do you use Joules to do typically.

44:32.87
sharonpak5
I use jewels for literally everything for tracing our parts um seeing like what we have an inventory what we have in stock um, seeing the part flow so seeing how like 1 one part gets assembled to another.

44:39.26
Alan_Michael
And on.

44:49.61
sharonpak5
Um, how the part numbers change. Um, which part numbers get kidded together to make that one part? Um, ah we could look at purchasing information see like if that part number was purchased how much of that thing we have an inventory. Um, so that we could go tell our.

44:52.82
Alan_Michael
Um, ah, um.

45:00.41
Alan_Michael
Okay.

45:09.10
sharonpak5
Buyers go buy more because we only have like 20 left in inventory and we need more. Um, we could use it to track nonconformances. So when we have this one part number and then we have this build that's going on. Let's say it's not meeting print. Why.

45:17.14
Alan_Michael
On money. Sure.

45:26.57
sharonpak5
Um, has all this information on like why did a meat print what it should be susceptible or not um, all these things.

45:32.63
Alan_Michael
Okay, so a functional question would be like how would you let's say that you had a part come in right? How would you.

45:39.49
sharonpak5
Try.

45:44.74
Alan_Michael
And there's some question I guess about whether or not it was missing right? like maybe there's some inconsistent date or some inconsistent information that you're getting about whether or not this part actually exists imagine that a Ri to go. But.

45:50.10
sharonpak5
This is too really a problem now.

45:59.15
sharonpak5
Um, where did our parts go it was Juns on that show.

46:02.34
Alan_Michael
Oh no.

46:08.32
Alan_Michael
Ah, how do you troublehoot a problem like that in jus like what steps with your follows. Yeah yeah, like what steps would you follow I Guess to track the part get idea of what it status is and then yeah.

46:16.37
sharonpak5
Ah, was in jewels.

46:23.19
sharonpak5
Sure sure sure. Um I mean you could go as far back as looking at the Po and being like okay like did we order it. Okay, ordered it. Um, now that we would order it like did it get kidted to a work order right? It's like hey got kided to a work order.

46:29.20
Alan_Michael
Okay.

46:34.58
Alan_Michael
My yeah.

46:39.33
sharonpak5
Well so that got kidded so where did it end up in the factory floor right? because they take pictures so it's like okay it says that it's here is it actually there. Um now no, it's not there. Well where to go I don't know like let's go play some more detective work and go talk to the operators that work in that area.

46:41.14
Alan_Michael
A.

46:48.46
Alan_Michael
Um, yeah.

46:54.62
Alan_Michael
Sure.

46:56.58
sharonpak5
Did you see this part that you work on it says that you did right? you signed off on it. Yeah I put it right there like in this box. It's like okay so where the box go I don't know Well what you mean.

46:59.77
Alan_Michael
R then.

47:06.79
Alan_Michael
Um, we have to do it what up to.

47:15.72
sharonpak5
Ah, and so yeah, that's a functional question but I can work at 19 right now.

47:16.22
Alan_Michael
Um, okay, that's a functional question. That's a functional question. Yeah, like so for example, if you wanted to be a consultant on like Juules right? You probably have enough functional knowledge.

47:33.95
Alan_Michael
Maybe you can convince them that you can also solve some of the technical problems as well. Yeah, like if you have a problem in Jules like where do you go like if there's a bug or an error or something doesn't work the way you expect? What do you do pay.

47:38.88
sharonpak5
Um, okay, interesting.

47:44.24
sharonpak5
Fun fact I hate jewels okay, every single every single manufacturing engineer at my company hates our EP software because it sucks.

47:53.70
Alan_Michael
Everyone says this.

48:00.54
Alan_Michael
Um, you know it's funny. Everyone hates their your piece software.

48:02.80
sharonpak5
This is so true I hit it up you software parkker too when I was working there like why do all you like you guys make the software and you guys are like implementing it right? So like can you fix the up software is like what what is is bad.

48:11.81
Alan_Michael
Ah.

48:19.80
Alan_Michael
In our defense we didn't make it oracle made it like they're the vendor right? We just bought it from them to give to our colleges. Yeah or repeat. They all suck all ear p suck because they're just huge. They're too big and so.

48:21.60
sharonpak5
I her.

48:30.45
sharonpak5
Um, and it sucks ah guys Million dollar idea make an earp system that people actually like.

48:41.77
Alan_Michael
You mean they wouldn't even need to like it for a million dollars shoot no.

48:45.25
sharonpak5
True You know I think that's what blue like tried doing right? So they're like oh we're not going to use oracle. We're gonna just make our own because like this earpiece system sucks and we still don't like it. So just you just can't win. Can't win.

48:59.74
Alan_Michael
You can yeah people always suck. It's almosts like I have clients that were like you.

49:03.66
sharonpak5
Yeah, obviously struck like a pain point with me I am very like riled up about our yearpiece. So um.

49:19.58
Alan_Michael
You know it's crazy I was actually at a restaurant I was at a bar um, just kind of hanging out getting dinner and this guy sat next to me they were like regular Sarah and I was kind of regular too. He's like oh what do you do and I was like oh yeah, you know like I work on Peoplesoft that's the yeah yourp software and he's like I hate peoples salts.

49:21.14
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

49:31.80
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

49:36.59
Alan_Michael
No take it I ran into a climate here. Yeah, he granted forever about how much he hates the new system how it makes his job hard I'm like look I'm not responsible for that vod. So don't complain to be.

49:52.31
sharonpak5
I can relate to thy guy. Ah.

49:56.74
Alan_Michael
You're just like I hate you? ah.

49:57.10
sharonpak5
I was trying to like contain it you know it's like it's oh I has its like there are some things I like about it more than like what we're using at Parker but there are some things that I liked more about like the or.

50:07.86
Alan_Michael
Yeah.

50:12.25
sharonpak5
Cool based system more than you know, like there are like it's pros and cons like you said everyone hates their UP system so yeah

50:12.36
Alan_Michael
Wow. Sure they do I mean I get it I didn't love it either. That's why I don't work get that field anymore. So.

50:23.48
sharonpak5
And like these kids listening to it. They're like what the hell is an erap system. Well kids listen up once you guys start working if you ever have to work on a era piece of them. You're probably hateed to no one wants it. No one might say your piece.

50:33.62
Alan_Michael
Um, it's true. They suck are.

50:41.83
sharonpak5
Yeah, anything on today's podcast you're going to hate your yard piece system but ok, um, so that being said is just sounds like if you're able to logically walk through problems and explain like your logical background or it's like this is why.

50:48.25
Alan_Michael
For real.

51:00.27
sharonpak5
If you could go from point a to B to C right? and there's a logical way for you to get to point a to B to C doesn't matter if your answers quote unquote right on ah as long as the lodge checks out, you're good right? It has to be right.

51:02.79
Alan_Michael
Um.

51:08.17
Alan_Michael
Oh no, it has to be right at least for a functional role. It has to be right technical roles. It has to be right because functional roles like the person that you're talking to is going to do the thing you just told them to do and so if you tell them to do the wrong thing. It could break a lot of stuff.

51:22.30
sharonpak5
Um, and.

51:26.71
sharonpak5
So when you interview people if they give you like good logic put the wrong answer. What do you do.

51:36.68
Alan_Michael
I usually that's a no like usually it's a pass. Um, yeah, usually it is ah but I'm gonna like hedge that a little bit so in our particular department. We were woefully understaffed and we had to do like 30

51:40.96
sharonpak5
Um, ah.

51:52.84
sharonpak5
President.

51:54.00
Alan_Michael
30 like software implementations over like 3 years and these are big. Yeah big big implementations right? So we didn't really have time to wait for someone to know their right answer? Um, so we were really harsh when it came to into hiring people.

52:07.96
sharonpak5
Um, ok, ok so you guys when taking like no entry level like super green people. Ok.

52:12.39
Alan_Michael
They had to be like basically ready to go almost right away. Yeah no, not at that point now when I came on board they were more flexible because I had never worked on that software before in my life right? but we had like a year of

52:29.20
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

52:31.85
Alan_Michael
I guess lead time before we started resuming the project. So that's what allowed me to get in when I did so it's really 10 minutes

52:34.38
sharonpak5
Um, ok gotcha I'm like Wow I T actually does a lot I'm like thinking about it now I'm like I T I know that like house say foolish and like my Alma mater. Um, they recently switched over to canvas.

52:47.38
Alan_Michael
We're going. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's all I T all I t.

52:52.14
sharonpak5
Ah, and on my that was probably all I t right when I don't know what they're using it before is probably like a home baked whatevers program. Yeah.

53:04.77
sharonpak5
And people also hate campus. So I'm like I could only imagine you know what I learned everyone hates everything that it does. Ah.

53:11.28
Alan_Michael
They do everyone hates everyone hates their software. They have to use all the time because of course you will all software has bugs right? If you're dealing with those bugs every day like of course you're going to hate it. Ah yes.

53:22.76
sharonpak5
Unless it's made by Apple then it's perfect and beautiful. Ah.

53:29.10
Alan_Michael
Their software is pretty good I will not lie about that. It is pretty nice I have they they they did get me Unfortunately I'm a little sad about that. But.

53:30.76
sharonpak5
Yeah, they got you because used to be in a hardcore Android user now you have an Apple iphone.

53:42.80
sharonpak5
For one convert.

53:46.15
Alan_Michael
I Have a little sad about that. But that's okay I'll take it. It is beautiful. Oh um, I just had this thought when you are going on about canvas and now I'm trying to remember what the oh implementations. So here's a fun part about implementations.

53:49.10
sharonpak5
Yeah, okay, yeah.

54:05.97
Alan_Michael
They probably didn't have to do this for canvas because it's very it's pretty web based. But if you're like implementing an Erp like if you're replacing someone's Erp software that process is crazy. It is absolutely nuts so we would have to like.

54:15.54
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

54:19.32
sharonpak5
I mean it makes sense because there's so many different like aspects to that software. Yeah.

54:23.98
Alan_Michael
Yeah, you're basically doing a full replacement of their entire organization. It's crazy so we would actually have to we had like the go live day and it's really go live evenings. We have to implement it overnight over the weekend.

54:30.82
sharonpak5
I.

54:41.26
sharonpak5
Um, what a what? oh go live I Thought you're so saying like go lie and I'm like go live to who like.

54:43.48
Alan_Michael
We call it go live but that's when we implement the software onto a particular. Yeah, go live.

54:52.44
Alan_Michael
Whom yourself to your coworkers when you say everything is going to be Okay, it's not going to be Okay, we would have to actually.

54:58.12
sharonpak5
Ah, ah, okay, okay.

55:09.98
Alan_Michael
Sign on. We didn't really know the exact time because we had a project team that basically had to do a bunch of stuff to prepare when they were done they would like send a message to us and say okay log on and test this before we give it to the colleges. So each of us would get several college systems. We had to test.

55:13.54
sharonpak5
Um.

55:15.62
sharonpak5
Are.

55:24.28
sharonpak5
Are.

55:29.97
Alan_Michael
And we would do this at like midnight or 1 am or 2 am it would just vary depending on how far behind the project team was so I would literally stay up until like 2 am and then get online to do all of my testing until about 4 or 5 in the morning.

55:36.10
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

55:47.97
sharonpak5
Um, so would you get like comped for that or you like what? what is your normal schedule then like during those like go live weeks or whatever.

55:48.78
Alan_Michael
And then get to go to sleep.

55:56.68
Alan_Michael
I would not get calmed for that because I was salary and the beautiful thing about salary is you don't have to get comfort things like that.

56:04.79
sharonpak5
But like they wouldn't give you like comp days or some way of that for like working over like the weekend or whatever like you wouldn't get like an extra vacation day or something.

56:12.80
Alan_Michael
Not really I mean sometimes what they would do is if I was like hey I don't feel well they're like yeah you know you can go home. You don't have to take a sick day for it because you know you were up at four a m or whatever doing this over the weekend. So yeah, you're fine.

56:28.51
sharonpak5
Um, okay sure. Okay.

56:30.78
Alan_Michael
So it'd be kind of like under the table comp right? It wasn't guaranteed but your boss might kind of hook you up a little bit.

56:40.34
sharonpak5
Is why you guys should work for blue because our managers give us comp days a few work weekends hey um, okay, that kind of sucks and so you're still expected to come in on on like Monday even though you're up all day. Yikes I mean I guess guys.

56:44.30
Alan_Michael
Um, a a.

56:50.74
Alan_Michael
oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah everyone comes in one day hundred percent

56:59.35
sharonpak5
Fully remote. So.

57:01.49
Alan_Michael
So what I don't need to sleep so because I don't have to drive to the office. But I yeah.

57:06.28
sharonpak5
Um, yeah I.

57:15.47
sharonpak5
I Ok ok, interesting. Um, why.

57:18.10
Alan_Michael
So you know why they can't give us comp days after something like that because Monday is the first day that this college or your end user is going to be in this yeah erp system. So it's onboarding. It's like a fire. There's fires everywhere on that day.

57:28.23
sharonpak5
Oh that makes sense.

57:35.35
Alan_Michael
For like two weeks for ah yeah, yeah, sometimes we do we look get comp days. You weren't like set in stone but we would all like take time off and kind of like well we tried.

57:35.91
sharonpak5
So do you get comp days after the two weeks

57:51.48
Alan_Michael
We did not have much opportunity to take time off I actually rolled over like my vacation hours I think like 2 years in a row because I couldn't take them all. Yeah I couldn't the shop was too small. We had way too many clients. It was literally for the longest time 3 people I was the most senior one because my other person left.

57:59.26
sharonpak5
Um, oh my gosh.

58:11.47
Alan_Michael
So there's 3 people that supported what ten fifteen that's about 15 colleges. Yeah, it was stupid absolutely crazy.

58:19.58
sharonpak5
Wow! Ok, ok, interesting. Um yes, that's crazy but knowing everything that you know now having the major that you have now.

58:35.46
Alan_Michael
Um, yeah.

58:36.71
sharonpak5
But would you have done differently if you're to go back into college.

58:42.25
Alan_Michael
Um, that's a good question I would say probably I think I would choose a more technical major I don't think it necessarily would have been computer science because.

58:46.60
sharonpak5
Same major different major.

58:53.71
sharonpak5
Um.

58:57.59
Alan_Michael
I just don't think it's that interesting. But and yeah, 5 years totally worth it. But ah, no no I don't think computer science but it probably would have been a more technical discipline I think so that would be 1 thing I would change for sure.

59:00.92
sharonpak5
Works in it in like 5 years um

59:12.36
sharonpak5
Like what like mathematics or.

59:16.59
Alan_Michael
Maybe math like I actually liked math but I put no effort into it when I first got to college and then I just after that point it was hard to like catch up right because math is super sequential like I basically bombed out of like pre-cal or cow because I never went to class and then at that point it was like well.

59:25.55
sharonpak5
Um, okay yeah.

59:34.53
Alan_Michael
There's no way I'm catching up I basically still did no math for a year and then like am I going to go get a math degree. No.

59:43.00
sharonpak5
Once you start going up to higher levels of math. It's not sequential anymore. It turns into magic. Ah.

59:48.22
Alan_Michael
Um, is that what a magic number is or imaginary imaginary number. So.

59:50.87
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

59:56.65
sharonpak5
Ah, ah I was like magic numbers like sure like.

01:00:01.50
Alan_Michael
Um, it's been a while. Um.

01:00:07.50
sharonpak5
Um, ok, ok, um, and so you would have chosen something more technical even though you said that you're like naturally pretty technical. Why.

01:00:14.78
Alan_Michael
That's 1 thing sure because it's really hard to get into places with a nontechnical background. It requires a lot of like knowing the right people and lubricating the right people.

01:00:32.40
sharonpak5
Aka Kissing butt I Okay okay, that's fair. That's fair.

01:00:32.76
Alan_Michael
Yeah lot of kissing but I guessed a lot of butt way too much. Yeah, that's 1 thing the other thing I would do differently and I think this part's important is I never asked for help when I was like going through school.

01:00:43.65
sharonpak5
And.

01:00:52.10
Alan_Michael
And like trying to figure out like how to get a job right? or how to like start a career I never asked for help during that process so might recommend firm anyone? No I mean yeah I like career counselors. It's stupid is what that is. It's dumb.

01:00:57.90
sharonpak5
Um, from anyone that's crazy.

01:01:10.11
sharonpak5
Ok, ok.

01:01:10.27
Alan_Michael
So dumb right? So my recommendation to anyone watching this or listening to this would be if you know someone who has the information that you're looking for I don't care if it's on Instagram I don't care if it's on Facebook I don't care if it's on Tiktok. If. They have like the stuff that you're interested in learning like oh yeah, we have internships at Xyz company right? like this is when they open I would just like message them and ask them like yo. how do I do this yeah how do I get in on this because it completely like. It saves you so much time so much time and effort.

01:01:50.37
sharonpak5
So for you since you're Mr independent and you had to do it on your own. Um, what do you think that costs you.

01:01:51.97
Alan_Michael
And yeah, um I would say it cost me a lot of time. So my first job out of college I was making like. $24000 a year right? I was basically a cashier in the accounting office and I was like oh I'm in my mid 20 s making $24000 a year and I just have like all these student loans that I have to deal with now. So it was not a good situation to be in so it was really tight. And I had to basically kiss a lot of butt and make myself available to a lot of people in like network in the right way where I was able to basically triple that in about 3 years so I went from that to about 8085 in the last job that I have yeah and I did that in about 3 years time

01:02:33.56
sharonpak5
Are.

01:02:46.93
sharonpak5
Um, ok.

01:02:49.66
Alan_Michael
Which is really hard to do in government but I could have say to myself that 3 years of like kissing. But if I just talked to someone when I was in college I could have graduated literally with a good job and then I wouldn't have had to struggle for like three or four years

01:02:53.49
sharonpak5
Um, but.

01:03:05.81
sharonpak5
Um, what do you mean like you could have just graduated with a good job.

01:03:08.84
Alan_Michael
Well I guess what I mean is is that I could have had a job lined up that would have paid me a more lovable salary for like the things that I had to do like pay off my student loans like rent an apartment all that other important stuff. Yeah yeah, I Just like yeah I winged it and.

01:03:18.38
sharonpak5
Um, if.

01:03:22.15
sharonpak5
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:03:28.84
Alan_Michael
That did not go very well at first. So not at all.

01:03:29.76
sharonpak5
Um, so sound like you went like 2 extremes your first extreme was like ask no one for help then you realize I need help kiss everyone's butts. Okay.

01:03:39.20
Alan_Michael
Um, yeah you you know, ah harder for say I definitely did that.

01:03:47.70
sharonpak5
Ah, okay, okay, ah.

01:03:49.41
Alan_Michael
There is this one side Actually when I was still in like my lowly job where this is an example of how I kissed but I guess to put context they were having this like faculty shindig right? And if you don't know faculty on a college campus. They're basically royalty, especially if they're tenured right. So they're all I don't know why they did this but we were all in the same building and it was like a temporary building so it's just like desk lined up at different corners of the building and think of it as like a big living room and every one of those desks was like a different department. So. It's very den this very get out.

01:04:17.82
sharonpak5
Um, okay, okay.

01:04:26.15
Alan_Michael
Faculty came into the middle of that building and had their like little. Oh you just got 10 year celebration right? They're like welcoming new faculty we're in the accounting department. It's like month and year end. So we're working like way after 5 like we're busy.

01:04:32.55
sharonpak5
Um, this.

01:04:36.93
sharonpak5
Um, yeah, yeah.

01:04:41.36
Alan_Michael
And 1 of the executives came over to us because we were talking about work right? She came over to me and someone else and she put her finger up to her lips and she was just like shh and then she walked out so this became.

01:04:55.23
sharonpak5
I.

01:05:00.22
Alan_Michael
A huge college incident because my coworker got pissed right? I got a little upset but I didn't make a big deal out of it. But then like this rumor started spreading that like 1 of the executives like try to shush like one of the classified employees so it looked really bad.

01:05:10.58
sharonpak5
Um.

01:05:19.38
Alan_Michael
The vice president of instruction who was hosting the faculty event got tired of the rumors apparently because people were saying bad things about the faculty and how they're high and mighty and how they don't respect people and blah blah Blah Blah blah So she sends me an email that says hey can we talk about this.

01:05:34.37
sharonpak5
Um.

01:05:38.23
Alan_Michael
You know I want you to meet me in my office and my coworker was like I'm a call the union we're gonna get representation like they can't do this to us like she was like ready to go right? She was hyped up me I just got there I'd been working there for like a few months I was like you know what now let's just.

01:05:51.25
sharonpak5
Um, ah.

01:05:57.65
Alan_Michael
Let's just go like I'm pretty good at talking like we'll just smooth it over throw out the what's threatening that's right, We'll just go. We'll just have a good time for some reason she trusted me I have no idea why but she just trusted me and so we roll out to this like.

01:06:00.96
sharonpak5
Um, and I brought me 2 Yeah yeah.

01:06:16.78
Alan_Michael
Row out to this woman's office and you know she starts pressing us about how the rumors got circulated now I know how the rumors got circulated my coworker circulated though. Um.

01:06:29.26
sharonpak5
Ah, you know like she's sitting right? there.

01:06:33.37
Alan_Michael
And they're like go look is look to you like oh snap like what are we going to say yeah and you know you do like the political thing you neither confirm nor Deny What actually happens right? You just claim ignorance and she knows like she knows that we knew how it happens but I didn't say it.

01:06:38.38
sharonpak5
Um, yeah.

01:06:43.58
sharonpak5
Are. Um, yeah.

01:06:51.96
Alan_Michael
And so we came to an understanding everything was fine but then a funny thing happened is that that same vp reached out to me like six months later and then asked me to speak for her faculty at an event.

01:07:07.72
Alan_Michael
Yeah, about my story or whatever right I had something that she wanted and so because we were able to come into an understanding before and I didn't make a big deal out of it when I could have right I didn't involve the union or anything like that. Um, she was like oh yeah I guess I can work with this person. Like this may be someone who can give me the things that I want So I had a story I was a minority right? She had these faculty she needed to sell a story to a success story right? So I agree to do it and that raised my profile at the college which is why I was able to move around the way that I did.

01:07:43.74
sharonpak5
And that is how being a minority actually helped you for once in life. Yeah, ah.

01:07:46.38
Alan_Michael
Um, it is it. Yeah, you have something people want a lot of people want it now. It's ridiculous.

01:07:56.30
sharonpak5
Um, yeah, yeah, you are what do they like the token Whatever like.

01:07:58.98
Alan_Michael
Are are real I've done so many token speaking engagements. It's absolutely ridiculous. Yeah yeah, like I spoke at a scholarship dinner.

01:08:06.34
sharonpak5
Really? um.

01:08:11.26
Alan_Michael
It was like this Martin Luther King event and we would invite like the who's who of like lacy and Olympia right? So we'd have like the chief of the police department the chief of the fire department the congressman Denny heck would show up like ah all kinds of people would show up right and they needed an Emc to basically run the evening. And somehow I have no idea how this happened I just my raised my profile a little too much and so they asked me to do it and I was like sure I'll do that for you.

01:08:39.53
sharonpak5
We're gonna have this guy from I t be the mc.

01:08:43.79
Alan_Michael
Yeah I wasn't even I T at that point I was like financial aid I think is when that happened I was in the financial aid department. Yeah, they're like oh yeah, I'd be the Mc for this I'll said oh K Sure I'll do that.

01:08:51.93
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

01:09:01.24
sharonpak5
Um, okay.

01:09:02.72
Alan_Michael
Raise a profile you know, whatever raise the profile like if someone needed something I was I did it.

01:09:10.00
sharonpak5
What's what what does Trump say like there's no such thing as like bad exposures and with that. Yeah, all press is good press like.

01:09:13.89
Alan_Michael
Oh yeah, no such thing as by press. Oh yeah, just yeah, put yourself out there. All press is good press put yourself out there.

01:09:24.41
sharonpak5
Okay, okay, and is that your wisdom for current college students or.

01:09:31.81
Alan_Michael
Yeah, my wisdom is and I think this part's important when you're at a job. A lot of people when they're in a job will play their position and my advice is absolutely do not play your position right? Um, that means.

01:09:42.73
sharonpak5
Um, what does that mean.

01:09:47.35
Alan_Michael
You come in, You're like oh I'm an engineer so I'm going to do like the engineer things in my job description and that's what I'm going to focus on but what's funny is is that there's a lot of people above you like that you report to and even lateral to them that.

01:09:51.59
sharonpak5
Are.

01:10:03.85
sharonpak5
Um, ah.

01:10:04.55
Alan_Michael
Need things done for like their own careers right? to make themselves look good their stuff. Yeah, they need it done and guess what they can't do it themselves most of the time they need like an in someone on a lower level who can kind of like fast check that stuff for them or get it done for them. So just.

01:10:08.97
sharonpak5
Um, for sure.

01:10:12.64
sharonpak5
This is.

01:10:20.72
sharonpak5
Are.

01:10:23.68
Alan_Michael
Figure out who they are figure out what they want and whether it's related to your job or not like if you're the type of person who ends up making those things happen raises your profile and then your career is like on a fast track.

01:10:33.46
sharonpak5
Correct for sure I think like how I explain this to my colleagues is there are 2 different types of like work. You could be doing at your job. You could do low visibility low.

01:10:40.18
Alan_Michael
And. And.

01:10:50.50
sharonpak5
Um, Priority tasks at your job that are important or you could do high visibility high priority tasks at your job that are worth it right? And like they're both important but like trying to void the low visibility ones.

01:10:52.40
Alan_Michael
I.

01:11:01.50
Alan_Michael
Um, one yeah sure and.

01:11:06.41
sharonpak5
And do the high visibility ones even if they're harder and you don't know what to do because as you're figuring it out if you do a good job then that just like elevates your profile right? and it makes your boss look really really good. Yeah, who doesn't right like.

01:11:13.72
Alan_Michael
Yeah, that's great advice and they love looking good. Oh man, they love looking good. But yeah, do kidding I was so made me look good at my job. No all my hand.

01:11:26.30
sharonpak5
Yeah, yeah.

01:11:32.59
sharonpak5
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah I mean but if you keep those relations right? like as they move up if they are a good bostons. They actually like you odds are they'll bring you up with them tap a deal.

01:11:32.68
Alan_Michael
Out there flapping.

01:11:39.51
Alan_Michael
1 that's true. yeah that's true that's the move I was playing for. But unfortunately the person I reported to well the one above them. She was like the head of the office and she wasn't leaving anytime soon. So I was like okay.

01:11:55.34
sharonpak5
Are.

01:11:57.74
Alan_Michael
I need to like go somewhere else in order to like get the investment that I want. Yeah oh a hundred percent a hundred percent that is everything.

01:11:59.97
sharonpak5
Yeah, yeah, there's sometimes a cap depending on where you are but networking. It's it's not about what you know it's about who you know right? Yeah ok yeah, oh yeah, 100% I'm like

01:12:16.44
Alan_Michael
1

01:12:18.41
sharonpak5
I Think that's kind of what like helped me in my career the most I didn't know anything right? I Joke about this all the time with my boeing mentor where we're like we don't know anything. We just know the people and so like the people that actually know things a lot of times they don't like talking to other people.

01:12:22.39
Alan_Michael
They have.

01:12:33.20
Alan_Michael
Now. Ah.

01:12:36.68
sharonpak5
And so we'll just kind of like get their knowledge and be like oh like you should talk to them and they're like no, we don't want to talk to them like you tell them I I'll tell you everything so because you're like giving them the information that they need at like a more surface level I Guess then you end up booking like the.

01:12:51.91
Alan_Michael
Ah, so um.

01:12:53.96
sharonpak5
Big. Whatever super smart guy even though you're not even that smart.

01:12:55.45
Alan_Michael
What you're not that smart Really a a.

01:13:01.29
sharonpak5
Um, absolutely and I I graduated with barely a 3.0 gpa 3.02 to be exact. Yeah.

01:13:13.78
Alan_Michael
Well, you do know that squares are rectangle. So that's nice. That's right.

01:13:17.48
sharonpak5
Squares are rectangles but all rectangles are not squares actually no rectangles are squares. 0 rectangles are squares. Ah, ah, it's not rocket science.

01:13:28.77
Alan_Michael
Um, geometry um deep work with rectangles at your job. Oh scary, How about squares.

01:13:34.76
sharonpak5
I Yes I do I work with squares probably less often than I do ah rectangles I model a square the other day as a base.

01:13:43.60
Alan_Michael
Okay, that's that's not too concerning then oh was it a rectangle nice or.

01:13:54.70
sharonpak5
Had a rectangle one and had a square one use crates and totes all the time those are squares and rectangles right to carry around parts Creative problem solving guys are.

01:14:02.93
Alan_Michael
Yeah I guess so so yeah, Marketet Science does not sound too bad tos. Ah.

01:14:09.97
sharonpak5
Them Quant skills are very important like.

01:14:17.38
sharonpak5
Um, neither does I T ask this? ah.

01:14:22.76
Alan_Michael
Ah, yeah, and doing everyone who hates their EP software to ah I would like us out so much better.

01:14:30.00
sharonpak5
Ah, well thank you so much. Allen Michael aka I move even though you hate it when I call you that actually know you don't well call him amo hit him up. Call him amo even though his name is Allen Michael ah

01:14:38.93
Alan_Michael
Yes, they do. Yeah.

01:14:46.50
sharonpak5
I appreciate you This was awesome I learned a ton about I T now I know that they're not just the guys that give me a new Keyboard or mouse every time I break mine but there's a lot more to it than that And yeah, this is awesome I appreciate it. Yeah.

01:14:52.69
Alan_Michael
No, yeah, there's a lot more to it than that. Yeah, this is fun. Thank you Thanks a lot. It was a good time pause.

01:15:05.44
sharonpak5
Um, ah pause the recorded now.